That's precisely it - not to convince him to agree with us, but to shame him with his own material...
December Fastrack...
- Thread starter Greg Amy
- Start date
That's precisely it - not to convince him to agree with us, but to shame him with his own material...
Russ Myers
New member
On this, I can only speak for myself. I have been a member of this club since 1976. I started in auto-x with a 1969 Mustang. My first dealing with rules were when I wound up in CP because I had ET mags on the car. I have raced in SCCA from SSC in a Ford Fiesta to CP/GT-2 in a 280Z. I have NEVER had deep pockets. I did go to the Runoffs in 1980, my only apperance, so far. I spent many years, post divorce, building an ITC Fiesta. It was never very competetive. When the SCCA invented Restricted level Prod cars, I moved my Fiesta to HP. I STILL want another shot at the Runoffs. Not having the money to really develop the Fezzy, but STILL WANTING TO RACE, I bought a Pinto to run ITB. I know I will get my ass kicked, but I will be getting it kicked without spendind a King's ransom. I WANT to race, I want to be on the track, I will do what needs to be done, within my budget, to accomplish this. If IT were to be a national class, I will be quite happy to try and qualify for the Runoffs. But still, driving around as hard as I can at the back of the pack, being FIELD FILLER as it were, is still a HELLUVA lot more fun than leaning on the fence, watching cars go by. And isn't FUN what its all about.
Russ.
Russ.
gran racing
Super Moderator
Hey Chris, you probably don’t remember it but several years ago you did some cage work on my then ITA Honda Prelude. Back then the car was crap. It had an extremely high millage engine, inexpensive non-adjustable suspension (used the OEM one for a little bit), and a muffler to make it sound cool. Oh, I ran on old, used SRF tires that I purchased for $25 each. I knew that I was going to get my butt handed to me but I was out there learning, having a ton of fun, and had people to race with.
Fast forward to now. The Prelude was re-classed into ITB and over the years I worked hard to improve upon my racecraft. AFTER spending quite a bit of effort on the driver, I built a new Prelude (slammed the Bondo Prelude into a wall at LRP necessitating a new car). This time I had a pro engine built, good suspension installed, and other go-fast parts added. I have since continued to develop the car and driver. Throughout this entire journey, I’ve always had plenty of ITB cars to race with and a carrot out there baiting me for more even as I got to the pointy end of the field. To me, this is what makes Improved Touring one of the best places categories.
This simply couldn’t be further from the truth. While I’m a big fan of IT, there are other great categories where people can begin their addiction on an entry level budget.
Over the years I’ve spoken with a large number of people attempting to enter the sport. To give you some sort of perspective, we started a mentor program just a couple of months ago and have in excess of 120 students enrolled. One of the biggest obstacles people face is misinformation out there (even if well intended such as your case) and not knowing where they can obtain guidance. Maybe because you’re focus is on national events you’re simply not seeing or hearing of all the novice success stories? I'm not sure. My original intention was to write my resource (GoAheadTakeTheWheel.com) for novices but sure wish more experienced racers would at least read though it to get a different perspective. Et hm, Chris.
Read about Kai purchasing an SSC racecar for $5,000, doing regionals and driving the car to the track. He’s just another prime example of how SCCA has plenty of places for people race on modest budgets.
As far as crash damage goes in IT, I’m just not seeing it where I race (primarily LRP, the Glen, and Summit). Oh, and as far as not traveling further? It’s hard to justify the added expenses and time off when there’s such fantastic competition fairly local.
Fast forward to now. The Prelude was re-classed into ITB and over the years I worked hard to improve upon my racecraft. AFTER spending quite a bit of effort on the driver, I built a new Prelude (slammed the Bondo Prelude into a wall at LRP necessitating a new car). This time I had a pro engine built, good suspension installed, and other go-fast parts added. I have since continued to develop the car and driver. Throughout this entire journey, I’ve always had plenty of ITB cars to race with and a carrot out there baiting me for more even as I got to the pointy end of the field. To me, this is what makes Improved Touring one of the best places categories.
This simply couldn’t be further from the truth. While I’m a big fan of IT, there are other great categories where people can begin their addiction on an entry level budget.
Over the years I’ve spoken with a large number of people attempting to enter the sport. To give you some sort of perspective, we started a mentor program just a couple of months ago and have in excess of 120 students enrolled. One of the biggest obstacles people face is misinformation out there (even if well intended such as your case) and not knowing where they can obtain guidance. Maybe because you’re focus is on national events you’re simply not seeing or hearing of all the novice success stories? I'm not sure. My original intention was to write my resource (GoAheadTakeTheWheel.com) for novices but sure wish more experienced racers would at least read though it to get a different perspective. Et hm, Chris.
Read about Kai purchasing an SSC racecar for $5,000, doing regionals and driving the car to the track. He’s just another prime example of how SCCA has plenty of places for people race on modest budgets.
As far as crash damage goes in IT, I’m just not seeing it where I race (primarily LRP, the Glen, and Summit). Oh, and as far as not traveling further? It’s hard to justify the added expenses and time off when there’s such fantastic competition fairly local.
What an absolute of horse crap combined with a healthy dose of over-importance.
The only difference between national and regional drivers are
1. The size of their wallets
2. The generally pleasant attitude of regional drivers as opposed to the cornhole attitude of a large segment of the national driver population.
I started flagging when I was 18 and now I'm 44 and I can tell you that every year, the worst driving, the worst attitudes and the biggest need to compensate for tiny wedding tackle happens at national races.
Jesus in a Yugo, you don't need to be good to have a national license -- you just need $$$. A person could be completely unlicensed on 1January2011 with ZERO racing experience and attend the freaking 2011 Runoffs by just picking the right class.
IT will never get factory support for one simple reason -- we race OLD cars. Manufacturers generally want to support their current models, not model that was discontinued or changed 20 years ago.
More horse poop.
In winter 2006 I bought a reliable, pointy-end ITC car with a boatload of spares for $3K. That I didn't run it at the pointy-end had nothing to do with the $$ in the car and everything to do with my driving.
In Winter 2008, I SOLD it for some amount I don't remember and bought ITB version of the car for under $4000. The only significant development money put into the car was a new exhaust and that was only because the old one got a hole in it. The car always has been a pointy-end car and I've moved from mid-pack ITB to having the front pack in my sights. None of that was CAR development -- it was all driver development and gaining confidence.[/quote]
And a major reason for the body damage probably was a lack of race craft on the part of time trial driver who, unless he's actually gone wheel-to-wheel with someone for position will have very little clue where sticking your nose inside is acceptable and anticipated and where sticking your nose inside will get you chopped.
Again I repeat, the WORST driving I witnessed each year as a flagger ALWAYS happened at a national, not a regional.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
...and the best part of that angle is that Ruck will tell you that his FP car is essentially an IT car with the washer bottle removed. That's got to sting.
K
It seems to me I always hear two jokes about British Prod cars:
1) No one wants to be the run group after them 'cause there's gonna be oil on the track.
2) In the run group with the Prod classes, everyone in the run group gets to take a victory lap.......if they didn't oil the track
In my time of running IT, there have been many pro weekends where we get to be a support race. Without fail, the consenses is the IT race is the best of the weekend....
.
Oh, it's come to me dragging old trite Prod jokes out. Sad. hee hee. But what can we expect from me? I'm just a driver of a crappy old bucket of bolts banged up IT car....clearly jealous of the higher ups like the prod guys.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Some thoughts on the national vs regional thing. I hold a Nat lic. One weekend a friend rented a Spec Racer Ford to a customer at a Regional. I was the crew guy assigned to that car. Each session he came in and reported the car was fine, he just needed 'more time' in it. He was pretty much tail end charly. He ran every session, and finished the race. Finished in the top 2/3.
The very next weekend, I jumped in the same car. UNdrivable. I was 5 seconds a lap faster than the rental driver. I found the rear bearings loose, AND the RR toe link had a bad end, so it was getting rear toe change everywhere. Replaced that, went out for qualifying. Two seconds faster, but STILL undrivable, LOL. Strung the car, but couldn't get it to hold alignment. FRONT tie rod shot. Replace. I had qualified 30 of 34 or so, LOL. (Thank god the race went better, ..)
So, the renter beat almost a third of a Regional field, but I, going 6 plus seconds faster per lap, was nearly last in a National field.
That's the way it is, in certain classes at certain races. That's a best to worst case scenario, but classes like SM and SRF ARE tough nuts to crack Nationally.
On the other hand, my pal in his ITS/Prod car scores trophies in National events, but, would have had his ass handed to him in a Regional ITS race, even in prod specs!
In popular classes, National racing is top notch. But many/most classes aren't popular, and trophies are easy pickins'.
other differences include
The very next weekend, I jumped in the same car. UNdrivable. I was 5 seconds a lap faster than the rental driver. I found the rear bearings loose, AND the RR toe link had a bad end, so it was getting rear toe change everywhere. Replaced that, went out for qualifying. Two seconds faster, but STILL undrivable, LOL. Strung the car, but couldn't get it to hold alignment. FRONT tie rod shot. Replace. I had qualified 30 of 34 or so, LOL. (Thank god the race went better, ..)
So, the renter beat almost a third of a Regional field, but I, going 6 plus seconds faster per lap, was nearly last in a National field.
That's the way it is, in certain classes at certain races. That's a best to worst case scenario, but classes like SM and SRF ARE tough nuts to crack Nationally.
On the other hand, my pal in his ITS/Prod car scores trophies in National events, but, would have had his ass handed to him in a Regional ITS race, even in prod specs!
In popular classes, National racing is top notch. But many/most classes aren't popular, and trophies are easy pickins'.
other differences include
- Longer races (errr, time trials, in many cases) at Nationals.
- Fewer nationals to choose from.
- Greater flexibility in picking tracks and schedules in Regionals
- More 'extracurricular' opportunities in Regional racing. (Like ProIT)
- Regions have more flexibility with weekend formats with Regionals because they aren't chained by National 'standards'. So you get events like triples etc.
Yeah... besides, as any Prod guy will tell you, reliability is seriously overrated.
Racerlinn
New member
Major difference for me:
Regionals typically have at least 2, sometimes 3 races per weekend.
Nationals typically have 1 race per weekend.
No thanks, I need at least two RACES (whether Regional or National) to make it worth my time and fulfill my expectation of having fun RACING.
I don't need 45 minutes of practicing and qualifying on a Saturday....boring.
Meh. If "national" racing is so much better than "regional" racing then there should be no problem with a plan like Kirk outlined since the "national" classes would be better than the "regional" classes, right? The national/regional distinction is completely artificial for GCR defined classes. Just have classes and races. Some regions may include classes in their weekends that other regions do not. These are truly regional classes. Keep race weekends the same if you want. I want double race weekends and divisional championships.
How many months till racing season starts again?
How many months till racing season starts again?
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Bet there has the be named 'Qualifying races' no? If not, you dilute the heck out of the points as you have WAY too many races that could pay points. So those races now are called 'Nationals'. The only real difference would be that ALL GCR classes would be on the schedule.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
And that to do so, race length would need to be adjusted. Which is fine. I'd MUCH rather have 2 20 min races than 1 45 (zzzzz)* minute race, and yes, I know the math doesn't equal....
I can think on much less than one hand the number of 45 minute 'sprint' races I've watched that I really thought were interesting.
Jake - actually, the math works out pretty close when you add a few minutes for cleanup between sessions... 
I'm with Lynn - Doubles are the way to go. I don't know that I've ever gone to a "Single" Regional, except the ARRC. The only reason I'd go to a Single National would be a lack of a second Double to go to (to qualify for the Runoffs or otherwise).
Exactly how much practice does one need, if one's such a good driver?!? Just more opportunity to burn up 'spensive rubber...
PS: Andy does have a relevant point about needing a proper, sane qualifying process for the national championships. Then again, maybe if we got rid of the arbitrary distinction, it might help us develop a more rational qualifying process that would actually require most drivers to have to race for and earn a spot on the grid at the end of the year.
...I'm just saying'...
I'm with Lynn - Doubles are the way to go. I don't know that I've ever gone to a "Single" Regional, except the ARRC. The only reason I'd go to a Single National would be a lack of a second Double to go to (to qualify for the Runoffs or otherwise).
Exactly how much practice does one need, if one's such a good driver?!? Just more opportunity to burn up 'spensive rubber...
PS: Andy does have a relevant point about needing a proper, sane qualifying process for the national championships. Then again, maybe if we got rid of the arbitrary distinction, it might help us develop a more rational qualifying process that would actually require most drivers to have to race for and earn a spot on the grid at the end of the year.
...I'm just saying'...
Why pay points at all? SCCA has RACES. Once per year, we have a National Championship Event. The winner of that event is the class champion.
Who may enter the National Championship Event? Any driver who has started a minimum of 6 races during the year in the class in which he is entered.
If Divisions want championships, let the divs set their own qualifying events.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
the problem with just having a free for all at the Ruboffs (KK) is that classes like SM (and maybe SRF) would be oversubscribed. How to chose who's in and who goes home?
JoshS
New member
The same way the tiny dirt tracks do it: heat races and a main race.
Except that the difference is that people don't travel far to those tiny tracks, maybe it really is best to figure out who gets in before people have to hit the road.
jumbojimbo
New member
Isn't that pretty much how it works out now? It seems like a lot of jerking around just to exclude a dozen or two people. And the people excluded are likely at least as skilled or more than many of the people who don't get excluded simply because they are in tiny classes.
It is kind of necessary to try to get the entry list right before traveling...
That's why what I suggested is a little bit clunky, in terms of the math. It's something of a philosophical policy decision, who should get the opportunity, but as far as first principles go I'd argue for processes that try to get the most competitive entrants there. Something that takes into consideration how many cars are in a class, in a division, rather than a simple allocation distributed equally across the country.
K
That's why what I suggested is a little bit clunky, in terms of the math. It's something of a philosophical policy decision, who should get the opportunity, but as far as first principles go I'd argue for processes that try to get the most competitive entrants there. Something that takes into consideration how many cars are in a class, in a division, rather than a simple allocation distributed equally across the country.
K
lateapex911
Super Moderator
yes counting from the bottom UP is the smart way. (or some equivalent system that doesn't award 'win' points that are the same regardless of the size of the field.