Dynapck at LRP for the NARRCs

First- sorry for pushing the contingency issue, not my place I guess as like was said I am unaware of the cost to actually set this dyno thing up and operate it.

My current feelings...

I agree 100% that I WANT to go and do at least 1 pull for 2 reasons.

A) compaire the newly built-up motor that will be in Stephens car (hopefully tonight) to the 4 year old unbuilt motor in my car. it would be interesting to see what gains you can get. his motor will be perfectly broken in at that point.

B) We are generally near the front and I think that others would be interested to see our numbers and we are certainly interested to see how we stack up against everyone else. I am sure that we have a tone more HP but we also weigh a good 300lbs+ on many other cars. It should be interesting to see how the P/W ratio's stack up.

Why I wont do it:

A) If money is tight and we have to choose between taking 1 pull with each car costing $100 or taking the crew to dinner, we will take the crew to dinner, they are far more important than all of you :wacko: !!! I had earlier suggested the contingency because I am a gambler and would hope to finish in the top 3 and I might just gamble the crews dinner on our performance. :unsure:

B) If thier is a 2 hour line, I am likely not going to sit in it. I don't want to make anymore suggestions on how to make this whole thing work better, but I am going to open my mouth and suggest a sign up sheet is ready incase a line starts to form.

Hope the feedback is helpful, I encourage all that can afford it to do so at least just for the fun factor of compairing numbers.

Raymond
 
Greg,

I think we can all agree this won't determine anything. What is does is give others a reference point to think anything they want. And then act on that info how they choose...most likely deciding that they can improve as DRIVERS instead of thowing money at the car - or that they NEED to throw some money at the car to be competitive.

Maybe people aren't ready for this. Let's sh!t-can the idea and set up a private dyno day with you, me and Serra's stuff. Tell me where and when.

(On edit) Hard lining today all over the place - work, other forums, etc. I am ready to mix it up at NHIS. Watch out!
 
Guys, lets not get too caught up in grand conclusions from this. It's as much about the spirit, and the comraderie of the NE guys as it is about anything else. We're all just gentleman racers, remember?

I expect to see some cool cars make some good pulls. Trends may emerge, or perhaps, interesting exceptions might arise. (90 hp ITA MR2s, for example). Last time I did this my RX-7 (which was, at the time a top 6 car at NHIS) made 101 ft lbs of Tq and 106 hp. To me, that was useful info, especially when I compared it to the others in my class. More data points is rarely a bad thing.

Finally, lets say there's a guy......he's WAY fast on certain days, at certain tracks, blows up in grand flaming ways regularly, and he decides to "opt out" of a pull here. Does that single act mean he's not legal? No, but it's another nail in the coffin, so to speak, and he knows it.


Matts right...Dynapacks aren't mental masterbation ego machines...the numbers are real, repeatable, and not inflated.
 
...Who's bringing the duck for the witch weighing?[/b]
Click to expand...

That's funny as heck! So if my car sinks, it's legal - right?

I've been watching this with some interest but not chiming in since it's not really in my bailiwick. However, there are overlapping issues at work here that haven't really been talked through...

1. Sure - it's a natural inference that, if someone won't do a public pull (that might not be a term to use in polite company), then they have something to hide.

2. However, in the dawning era of the PCA I can completely see some folks being appropriately worried that the inference taken away from this kind of test won't be used to affirm/disaffirm their individual legality but instead to influence decisions about classing and spec'd weights. This could, I fear, be another couple of steps over the crest of the slippery slope toward true competition adjustments (bleah!). It goes like this...

a. We've already started applying fudge factors to the "IT build multiplier" to determine power for the base wt/hp math, based on the manufacturer and "common knowledge" of how much different powerplants gain with IT improvements.

b. If it turns out (picking something out of thin air) that the MR2 DOES in fact demonstrate that "with a full-tilt build, I promise!" it only makes 85 whp (blame the exhaust restriction), someone might reasonably use that as evidence that it should be in B instead of A. Andy already suggested as much is possible...**

c. Lawton (since he's just this kind of bloodthirsty competitor) sees that move and the policy power of the at-track dyno demo is established! He makes the case that the Acura engine realizes greater gains than the the Tupperware SL2 (or whatever it is) and finds a sympathetic ear with an ITAC member who thinks that the fudge factor needs to be tweaked for one engine or the other.

d. We haven't crossed the line to make/model specific CA's but we have effectively arrived at the same place. Ick.

3. We've seen in the last year plenty of requests in FasTrack that are clearly efforts to protect (or restore) the competitive position of make/model spec lines in the ITCS. That is going to be a natural reaction when drivers feel like their competitive investment is being threatened, even if they aren't being individually accused of cheating. Heck - the dynamic I describe is possible only if the assembled masses really believe that the cars being dyno tested are LEGAL.

4. All that said, i'd do it in a minute for the learning value (dyno-to-dyno comparison) and for the symbolic power that Andy describes so well. I ain't afraid of questions of legality but it occurs even to me that it could raise little shitstorms among the ITB ranks if they learn that my engine is faster than they are, and "all" I have to do is be a better driver to beat them. :)

K

** On Edit - I ALREADY think that the MR2 and its cousins should be in B, based on what we already think we know.
 
i am not afraid of showing what i have, and for curiousity sake i will do it so we all have something to talk about. being that the car is a past arrc winner i think most know that the car has ponies under the hood. i just think that some may not understand as you said that in the grand skeem they do not mean anything.I am not afraid of what i have,i do beleive others ,for various reasons, are.
on the flip side i do think that there is a price paid for the bulids of these cars.i think we have a right to hold on to this info. i think it should be shared with others that step up to the plate and do the same with there cars,meaning putting there own cars on the dyno. i know this will be done in a public enviroment and all is welcome to see.but i donot beleive that it should be broadcast to the whole nation. from my opinon if anthony wishes to share his info then he has every right. from my stand point i think if msn has found something that no else has then why should you tell the other integra builders about it. let them earn that info.i think that info gives msn or greg or anybody a competitive edge against other builders. the above info is an example. i have no idea where my car stands or anyone elses.
 
Rick - I hear you. Just becasue X car puts out X more doesn't mean the secret is out. It just means you should call Anthony and buy his stuff if you want that kind of power!

There are a million reasons to do it and a million to not. You just have to decide what reason you go with.
 
yes but if i am (example) sunbelt or or someother car builder that would not make sense. i guess since i own a buisness i am thinking from that point of view.
 
Rick, thats cool. And you're right...your car DOES have solid power, no doubt about it. It's a first class effort to be sure. But again, you carry more weight than, say, the mosquito! And you're FWD, so it's not all about power.

Point being, that unless somebody pops the chart at some huge number like 200 hp for a 1.8 ltr engine, it's impossible to draw any sweeping conclusions.

As for MSN, and the secrets of success....merely showing another example of that successs doesn't tell anyone HOW it was done. No ECU mapping or exhaust profiles are being broadcast here, so the secrets are safe.




Kirk, as always, makes good points...but, it's not about the knowledge, it's about using the knowledge. The ITAC is smart enough to know that it's not about single pulls with unverified builds, just as it's smart enough to not believe reports of 225 hp at the wheels of German vundercars.
 
This is getting beyond silly.

If we can get enough commitment to get the guy to drag his equipment to the track - and we get approval from the track so there's no conflicts - I'm paying for whatever it takes, for as many times as it takes, to put it all out there for everyone to see. I'll pull in line right after coming off the track, you pick the driver to warm the seat, Matt and I will stand off to the side and gloat.

I don't care if you (collective you, I'm not pointing to anyone specifically) do it, and for whatever reason you choose not to. If you think that number is valuable to you hidden, so be it. Neither your knowledge of my numbers nor my knowledge of yours is of any advantage or disadvantage; it will convince you of neither my legality nor my illegality. Knowledge changes not one teensy eentsy bit whether I win or lose, it'll just mess with your mind (or ease it).

For reference, my best DynaPack pull was a 147hp, and that was exactly as raced in the '05 ARRC, where I placed 4th. We pulled it out of the enclosd trailer, dyno'd it, put anti-freeze in the radiator, loaded it back in the trailer, and let it sit in there until I unloaded it for the '06 season. The only engine work done to the car since the ARRC - besides oil and filter changes and anti-freeze changout - is an aluminum crank pulley and a different muffler. Hell, I think we're still running the same spark plugs as in the '05 ARRC!

One Forty Seven wheel ponies, kids. That's only 7 more than stock crank.

Now, how big is yours?
 
I won't be at that event, but I think its a great idea (sure sounds contradictory).

This has as much ability to make people look good by either showing that they can build good motors, or they can drive well using a turd for an engine. It also will do the same for the ITAC/CRB as the relative pwr/wt ratios might be spot on, or wildly off.

Need to keep people well aware that these numbers will only able to compare against nothing. Its all relative. Do a pull today, it will be different tomorrow. No two cars are going to have the same level of prep. There won't be that many cars that are similar. Probably can't tell people too many times that these numbers are only able to compare to the car next to them that day. You might as well print the curves w/ no scale printed on them. OTOH with nothing else to use, they will become the best set of numbers anyone has ever seen...

Any chance that a BWM would do a pull w/ & w/o the SIR??? (shit stirring) Same for a 1.8l SM car? Any chance results could get posted for those of us not able to attend?

Matt
 
Well, so far this is ...ummmm...interesting.

Be that as it may, at this point I'd say interest is high. By my rough count, we've got a little over 20 guys who are in.

Interestingly, except for Jeremy (thanks, Jeremy) we have no ITS guys. Hmmm? Maybe they don't check in that often?

Spread the word! Call the guys who aren't net savvy!

I think I'll cross post this on the RR/AX board as well.
 
All that being said the power and driver combination is key. Lord knows I am not connecting all the dots as a driver in my car. Moderate power, a good driver and great gears - now were talking.

Gearing is what interests me more. I grab 5th in the TEG and it feels like I pulled a chute at the drag strip. I remember seeing an in car video once and this car never came out of it's powerband - Ponies, Gears and Revs - WOW! Oh yeah it was a pretty good driver too.
 
Sorry for sounding a little crazy yesterday. maybe i slept on the wrong side of the bed.Lets line them up and dyno them. rick
 
Is this a go? I'd spring for at least one run after my race, mainly for my own curiosity. Still thinking, but I'll probably only share my results with those who share their own results with me. I definitely don't want to support any classing or de facto rules changes along the lines of NASA's GTS (stationary wheel dyno divided by spec weight equals class).

If people really want such a simple divisor-based class (I don't -- too many "loopholes"), I think it should be from scratch rather than from IT. Keep in mind that the chassis dyno bundles many factors besides the basic engine specs, such as gearbox/diff/lube choices, CV prep, bearing prep, exhaust tuning, all engine tuning, etc. One thing it does not bundle up is ram air effect (and intake air temp at speed), and that really is a biggie for some.
 
Trust me when I say this: it would be rediculous to use this data for rule changes or anything of the sort. This is a NARRC thing. There is no way to prove any numbers obtained are legal etc. Each individual will get out of it what they want.
 
I'm just worried that my brother may be ahead of me and I may have the faster car!!

So if I am beating him I am all in! But if he is beating me I will need to be peer pressured... with $$ of course!

Stephen

Now if Tim beats me on HP I am lobbying that those A3's get weight penalties or be pushed to ITA!! :)

It would be cool to see everyone do this after qualifying then get a seal on your hood. Then adjust the grid with handicaps and have standing starts accordingly... Unrealistic and it would never work but it sounds fun!
 
I'm in with the ITS RX-7 and the SSM if it's there. It's a great opportunity to see how your car's engine stacks up. Don't understand why people would be hesitant. Those with big horsepower #'s should be proud of their accomplishment and sets targets for those of us who aren't there yet. My only concern would be the wait in line, hopefully we could orginize that, like right after qualifying and keeping it to one hot run??? how about the other ITS guys???
 
You don't even have to put your money where your mouth is-I will.
I'll pay for every entered ITB car to do one $50 pull-IF
Both Blethems, Zaslow, Reese, and Gerundo are included and complete a pull.
I get archival copies of the torque and horspower plots for all cars.
Simple enough.
Phil Hunt
 
You don't even have to put your money where your mouth is-I will.
I'll pay for every entered ITB car to do one $50 pull-IF
Both Blethems, Zaslow, Reese, and Gerundo are included and complete a pull.
I get archival copies of the torque and horspower plots for all cars.
Simple enough.
Phil Hunt
[/b]
Click to expand...

It would be nice to compaire that list to you(Did you build a car yet?), Travis Warshey VW Rabit, Scott Carlson Volvo 142, Nat Wentworth Volvo 142, Paul Currens Volvo 142, Tim Mullens VW MKIII, Tom Kelly's (Richie Hunter) VW MKIII, Jim McMahn Opel GT, Richard Gleason VW Rabbit/Golf, and Rick benazic
Honda Civic. All also front running cars that I think may be racing.

Raymond
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top