ECU Rules.....is it time? HELL YES!!!

Found my info from Speedsource. Motec in a box was $3100 shipped or $3950 with Dyno tune. We should be doing BMW. :P Keep the harness and sensors-open the box-grow some kahonas to tear down the cheaters. Take donations from 10 racers that bitch and it will be real cheap. I will tear someone down to the rims if I think they are cheating. Certain miata's come to mind :rolleyes: .
 
Jake, the danger as I see it is that in the attempt to make it more affordable for some to have this technology we will at the same time be giving the guys with the budgets and/or skills yet another weapon to work with. How you ask; I have no idea, because I have neither the budget nor the experience to take advantage of the proposed new allowances. [/b]
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Earl, I appreciate the point. Unintended consequences are a huge factor in any decision.

I highlighted a bit of your quote;

Remember, the "proposed new allowances" aren't all that huge.

We currently have:
-Open ECUs (for those who can fit them)
-Open sensors (got that too. We have TPS mounted IN boxes in some cases. perfectly legal. Same for MAP sensors)
-Idle air bypass (Currently being done with aftermarket systems, and probable with some stock systems.

Now...lets remember the last one is illegal, and is a clear violation, but lets not kid ourselves that any new allowance will create this cheat.....it's already done.

But also remember, at this point it is ONLY the guys with huge budgets and/or skill sets AND the right equipment (ECU box) that are doing this.

The rest of us either:

- Can't fit it
- Can't afford it
- Can't figure it out.

Each of those is intererelated of course, and, by eliminating the first, we will open the options up, which has the effect of lessening either or both of the others.

As pointed out earlier, some will choose to spend their budget elsewhere where they feel they derive more benefit...and thats great, perhaps their car happens to not need the access to the controls other cars might. But now, the guys with the other cars are often up the creek.

Look, guys, let me just add a personal note. Joe said up the line he was worried that I was biased. Well he's correct that I have an opinion, and I will continue to form it, and when the time comes, I'll vote my 1 vote out of 9 on the ITAC. But...if you asked me 9 months ago, I'd have been dead set against the concept of an open ECU. Then I began to understand what we have, what the rules really allow, and some of the facts surrouding the issue.

Trust me, opening up the rule will hurt me further, and I anticipate my finishing position could be hurt by it. Guys I race against have stock ECUs...this could change that, and they might just get faster. I have no ECU...(And not even a carb, as Yaw hasn't returned mine after a year LOL) .....this won't do diddley for me.

So, I might have an opinion, but it sure isn't self serving..if I had any self preservation tendencies, I'd say "Stock!", but evidently I don't. ;)
 
Something to think about Jake. Years ago somebody thought it was a good idea to allow fender flares so all cars could run the big tire in production. Every addon may seem like a good idea on the surface.
 
I would be all for putting the genie back in the bottle, but for one problem: how do you handle the cars that came programmed with rev/speed limiters? Show me a work-around for that one issue and I'll jump on the stock-ecu bandwagon in a heartbeat.
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The work around will be different for every car, but for the BMW's it is relatively easy to trick the governor with a completely stock ECU.

For the '92 (non-vanos) E36, just unplug the speedometer sensor.

For the later E36's just cut every other tab off the 'wheel' that feeds the speedometer sensor in the rear diff. Now the speedometer will read half of the actual speed.

That said, I'm completely against requiring stock ECU's. It is completely unenforceable, doing so will only penalize the honest folks.

Grafton
 
i don't think you can write rules out of fear/expectation of people cheating. you need to consider how people will be "clever" though.

you write rules with the expectation (even though you know people cheat) that everyone will abide by the rules, and you try and create the best possible scenario if everyone is compliant.
 
Found my info from Speedsource. Motec in a box was $3100 shipped or $3950 with Dyno tune. We should be doing BMW. :P Keep the harness and sensors-open the box-grow some kahonas to tear down the cheaters. Take donations from 10 racers that bitch and it will be real cheap. I will tear someone down to the rims if I think they are cheating. Certain miata's come to mind :rolleyes: . [/b]
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Damn Steve, is the 3950 installed?



Jake, by now I'm sure you have seen the pros and cons of this. It's now up to the ITAC & CRB to get on the stick. You know the existing rule sucks and is only fair to a few. It's only a matter of time until some starts flashing their stock ecu's so IMO it's only logical to open up to the aftermarket ecu's, then there's the question of the wiring harness & sensors. How are we going to police it? Shouldn't it be up to us to prove were legal? There has to be some way we are over looking that is right in front of our faces, we just can't see it.

Dan
 
So our options are:

1. Back to stock
2. Stay as is
3. Open it up

1. Unenforceable, not a good option
2. Not that bad.
3. Better, maybe.

I can think of two ways I would support the third option.

A. Eliminate the stock box requirement (and the connector), but keep the remainder of the harness and sensors stock. This is certainly no worse than we are now, but some cars won't be helped much.

B. Eliminate the box requirement, allow modification or replacement of the harness, and allow addition or replacement of specific sensors. Make a list of the sensors these 'affordable' systems require and allow only those to be added or replaced. You may even specify where any new sensors can be located and/or require that all sensors used by the new system be located inside the engine compartment.

Grafton
 
Grafton,

What if Option #1 was not 100% stock but allowed 'chips' and flashing? As long as the stock board, sensors and wiring harness were unmodified...that is as policable (even easier IMHO) than ANY internal engine allowance or restriction...bone stock is for sure not the right thing.

AB - who is literally 10 days away from dropping a $2K programmable unit into his ITA car and investing even more money in a 5th dyno trip to try and get it to work. If option 1 is the answer, I hope I can sell it!
 
Sell it Andy, #1 (stock ECU w/chip tune) is the answer. Hell, how'd you set the Limerock record with that
crummy original setup?? phil
 
The problem is that option 1 is inequitable (see Amy's posts) and doesn't allow for future growth, and the related issues.
 
The problem is that option 1 is inequitable (see Amy's posts) and doesn't allow for future growth, and the related issues.
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we're inequitable now. NO new rule is going to include everyone. don't let the exception make the rule. if you feel the need, figure out a way to include the nissans in the chip/reflash party via specific line item.

future issues with regards to super-computer controlled vehicles is still just that, in the future. we don't know what they are or how tuners will overcome their shortcomings. lets burn that bridge when we get to it.

this seems a lot closer to the intent of the original rule, and thus far seems like the best solution to me.
 
Hell, how'd you set the Limerock record with that crummy original setup?? phil [/b]
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given that i don't know enough about ECU tuning my concern is that we'll just end up with "Motec in a chip" or something similar now instead of "Motec in a box."

how do we know this won't happen?
 
So our options are:

1. Back to stock
2. Stay as is
3. Open it up

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4. REVISE the wording to the existing rule JUST enough to get rid of the "or replace" and encompase the idea of only allowing 'chips' and flashing? As long as the stock board, sensors and wiring harness were unmodified.

SMALL changes to the wording that would correct the past mistakes... Anything even resembling a complete rewording, no matter HOW good you think you are at it, is going to simply open up new holes that didn't exist before, and only MAY solve the issue...

You already know what you have... tweak it to make it what you want... The less words, the better...
 
The problem is that option 1 is inequitable (see Amy's posts) and doesn't allow for future growth, and the related issues.
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Growth needs to be handled on an as need basis. You will never wwrite a rule thart will cover all the variables that will be out there with future ECU's. My money says as manufactures get better with extracting all available HP from each ounce of fuel we will be racing stock ECU's that will be better than anything we can do. And when the fly by wire throttle bodies start showing up in IT we won't have to worry about some hack Screwing up and causing the throttle to hang open from a piss poor harness build.
 
given that i don't know enough about ECU tuning my concern is that we'll just end up with "Motec in a chip" or something similar now instead of "Motec in a box."

how do we know this won't happen? [/b]
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Well, common sense tells us the problem will (sort of) solve itself, actually.

When the rule was written, they couldn't figure out a way to allow just chips, because you can't chip or flash all cars. (And there are what, hundreds of spec lines in IT?), so they thought they'd allow the modification of the board to accomplish the same thing, and figured the "in the box" bit would keep things in check.

Well, electronics, as we know, get smaller and cheaper all the time. Greg, whats the 18 month rule?? I forget the name, but it was something like you get twice the processing power for half the price every 18 months or something...

Anyway, we're at the point on the timeline where some of the more expensive and capable units are pretty small, and by happenstance, fit in SOME of the stock boxes.....

Eventually, prices will drop, and more manufacturers will have products that are smaller and smaller. So as long as stock boxes don't shrink (they will) more units will fit. IT's not a huge market, so I doubt we'll see many "Fits in small ECU baxes" systems designed or marketed just for us......

Of course, it doesn't really solve the issue, and it certainly doesn't help for years, but, eventually..........
 
.... The less words, the better...
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At last something I agree with....

How can you get any less words than, "ECU's are free," "Sensors are free," and "The wire harness is free"? :P Production it is not, those guys would make you replace the FI with a weber DCOE.

James
 
The problem is that option 1 is inequitable (see Amy's posts) and doesn't allow for future growth, and the related issues.
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Some cars can't use independent rear suspensions. Some cars can't remove their rear window wipers. It's all part of picking the right car. The inequity doesn't bother me one bit.


My money says as manufactures get better with extracting all available HP from each ounce of fuel we will be racing stock ECU's that will be better than anything we can do.
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I agree!

And when the fly by wire throttle bodies start showing up in IT we won't have to worry about some hack Screwing up and causing the throttle to hang open from a piss poor harness build.
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There are already cars in ITR with electronic throttles.
 
Some cars can't use independent rear suspensions. Some cars can't remove their rear window wipers. It's all part of picking the right car. The inequity doesn't bother me one bit.
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True, but those issues (the rear wiper won't hit the radar though, LOL) are issues that are known up front. Unfortunately, we can't predict some of the more subtle items that rear their heads later on, and can be deal breakers.
 
"simplify, simplify, simplify! I say let a man's affairs be of two or three." Thoreau
Given this is an entry level/journeyman's class, and given what amateurs do with electrons, I shudder to see the electrical nightmares peple will find it neccessary to create in their pursuit of speed that people like me will have to decifer!! GO AWAY!! They say the transistor is the fastest blowing fuse. How many fuses (custom ECMs) will you blow, before you find your problem?? These problems belong in Prod. phil
 
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