IT National? Anyone else have this experience at a driver's meeting this year?
- Thread starter shwah
- Start date
***It's a shame that some think the SCCA is using IT to bolster revenues.***
Andy, from my view a Division & a Region ARE the SCCA. Many Divisions out side the GREAT NE Divison hold restricted Regionals with their National events. If restricted Regionals are not held to bolster Division/Regional profit why are the restricted Regionals held with National events? < That's a question stated with respect to your comment which you should respond to.
When reading below the posts by Charlie & spnkzss I keep letting my mind wonder back to the starting days of the Limited Pre cars in Production which was 1996/1997. The original Philosophy of L.P was that a person could AT HOME fab/build a car that would be a National competitor. (& not at the back of the pack) < THIS is where IT cars could have progressed into at the National level had the L.P. rules not creeped to a silly level compared to the original philosophy. How many of you know what that whole L.P. deal has creeped into. The same sh_t would happen if IT were to go National IMHJ. The same sh_t happened to Spec Miata. & to someones comment about Spec Miata costs. The first two years of Pro Spec Miata a DRIVER could get the job done with a $20,000.00 car. After the Spec Miat went National the costs REALLY escallated to you pick a number & fill in the number $??,000. Wasn't the guy who towed three Spec Miatas to the 2007 Runoffs from the GREAT NE Division.
****Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Broring
If IT goes National the character of the class is sure to change. Rule creep and high dollar builds have already made IT less appealing as an entry level class. National status is sure to expand the expensive end of the IT spectrum and leave beginners and low budget racers farther behind. It would be another big step toward becoming the new "Production" class and a step away form the role in the club that it has served so well for years.
I think the real problem is not that Improved Touring lacks National status, but rather that there isn't a good next step beyond IT for the racer who aspires to the Runoffs and National competition. The Production or Prepared classes should serve this role but their rule makers have made little effort at making these classes accessible to IT drivers who want to "Move up".
As it is, Improved Touring is too good of a class to screw up in an effort to fix the problems of the club's National Program.
I know this may be WAY out there, and DEFINITELY not something done over night, but I think you are kind of right that there isn't a place for IT cars to go except production and there are quite a few things much more appealing about IT then production. What about making a place for IT cars to go. Keeping with the "stock" mentality. No tube chassis, but maybe allow the RR shocks with 4 way adjustments and little things that IT doesn't find ok. Maybe even make it run by the same IT committee, but a Nationally recognized set of classes. An IT car could go run in these classes, but a full built XX car couldn't come back because it would be illegal.
Keeping the same IT mindset, but straying away from comp adjustments that Prod lives on. I know it's vague, it would need a HUGE expansion, but seriously. Why not? Let guys like Andy (not picking on you) just bolt a couple extra go fast goodies onto his ITA Miata making your IT car faster and a National class. Win, win , win in my opinion. ****
Andy, from my view a Division & a Region ARE the SCCA. Many Divisions out side the GREAT NE Divison hold restricted Regionals with their National events. If restricted Regionals are not held to bolster Division/Regional profit why are the restricted Regionals held with National events? < That's a question stated with respect to your comment which you should respond to.
When reading below the posts by Charlie & spnkzss I keep letting my mind wonder back to the starting days of the Limited Pre cars in Production which was 1996/1997. The original Philosophy of L.P was that a person could AT HOME fab/build a car that would be a National competitor. (& not at the back of the pack) < THIS is where IT cars could have progressed into at the National level had the L.P. rules not creeped to a silly level compared to the original philosophy. How many of you know what that whole L.P. deal has creeped into. The same sh_t would happen if IT were to go National IMHJ. The same sh_t happened to Spec Miata. & to someones comment about Spec Miata costs. The first two years of Pro Spec Miata a DRIVER could get the job done with a $20,000.00 car. After the Spec Miat went National the costs REALLY escallated to you pick a number & fill in the number $??,000. Wasn't the guy who towed three Spec Miatas to the 2007 Runoffs from the GREAT NE Division.
****Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Broring
If IT goes National the character of the class is sure to change. Rule creep and high dollar builds have already made IT less appealing as an entry level class. National status is sure to expand the expensive end of the IT spectrum and leave beginners and low budget racers farther behind. It would be another big step toward becoming the new "Production" class and a step away form the role in the club that it has served so well for years.
I think the real problem is not that Improved Touring lacks National status, but rather that there isn't a good next step beyond IT for the racer who aspires to the Runoffs and National competition. The Production or Prepared classes should serve this role but their rule makers have made little effort at making these classes accessible to IT drivers who want to "Move up".
As it is, Improved Touring is too good of a class to screw up in an effort to fix the problems of the club's National Program.
I know this may be WAY out there, and DEFINITELY not something done over night, but I think you are kind of right that there isn't a place for IT cars to go except production and there are quite a few things much more appealing about IT then production. What about making a place for IT cars to go. Keeping with the "stock" mentality. No tube chassis, but maybe allow the RR shocks with 4 way adjustments and little things that IT doesn't find ok. Maybe even make it run by the same IT committee, but a Nationally recognized set of classes. An IT car could go run in these classes, but a full built XX car couldn't come back because it would be illegal.
Keeping the same IT mindset, but straying away from comp adjustments that Prod lives on. I know it's vague, it would need a HUGE expansion, but seriously. Why not? Let guys like Andy (not picking on you) just bolt a couple extra go fast goodies onto his ITA Miata making your IT car faster and a National class. Win, win , win in my opinion. ****
JoshS
New member
JJJ (what's your name, anyway?) -
I really do understand where you're coming from. You want to leave IT alone because it's successful and lots of members like the way it is. And because you don't trust "Topeka." I get it.
But -- this is a club, and we should be talking about the larger membership population, not just the IT population. And this proposal here, I would guess, is not being proposed to fix some damage to IT, as your question surmises. It's likely being proposed to address a larger issue with the membership.
So the right question is not "what is currently damaging IT", but rather, "Would adding national eligibility for IT be better for all of our current and future members than the current situation?"
Naturally any change is bad for someone and good for someone. You have highlighted a few reasons why such a change might be bad for some of the current IT-oriented members. But is there a chance that it's a net benefit for the club membership at large?
I think the answer is yes (and the reasons why are already in this thread), but I think the reason there are so many arguments here is that we're not all trying to answer the same question.
****>> I got into IT racing because it was Regional, I liked the rules, and it was just fun. Please let's not ruin the fun. ...
I'm trying to understand how National status would change things for someone with this goal. Help?****
K, your way to intelligent to to respond like this ^. Please follow the path of Spec Miata. Or need I make a list of the items that would be impacted with IT being Regional & National OR whatever else some of you would like to call IT in the future.
I'm trying to understand how National status would change things for someone with this goal. Help?****
K, your way to intelligent to to respond like this ^. Please follow the path of Spec Miata. Or need I make a list of the items that would be impacted with IT being Regional & National OR whatever else some of you would like to call IT in the future.
***I really do understand where you're coming from. You want to leave IT alone because it's successful and lots of members like the way it is. And because you don't trust "Topeka." I get it.***
Josh, let me add another point. Last year or the year before the majority of a poll taken on this site had a desire for IT to remain Regional.
Josh, let me add another point. Last year or the year before the majority of a poll taken on this site had a desire for IT to remain Regional.
JoshS
New member
Where is it written that it's an entry-level class? And what's the definition of an entry-level class, anyway? To me, an entry-level something is a good "first foray" into the world of something, and it's assumed that no one stays in the entry-level arena for very long.
Clearly, IT is not and hasn't been entry-level for a very long time, if ever. It's a destination, not a stepping-stone. Look at people like Kirk. He's been driving in IT since tires were made of wood or something.
Even the original article in SportsCar talking about it's purpose didn't make it out to be entry-level if I remember right.
This concept is just plain wrong. SCCA does not have entry-level classes. People choose where they want to race and they tend to stay there.
spnkzss
New member
I like that too, kinda going the other way of what I was thinking.
I was thinking of all the people that start in something like ITA, then want to go National with that car. I then modify my car to ITNA which allow less weight (lexan and fiberglass maybe), same engine rules, some 4 way adjustable RR shocks, and a set of slicks. Something for me to shoot for that is not of the prod mentality. You know the way it was originally suppose to happen before it got twisted over the years into the comp adjusted prod we have now.
JoshS
New member
I thought you guys didn't like "dilution." You just described a way to suck IT cars out of IT and have them UNABLE to return. I can't believe that's the best approach.
nothing really, but the CRB/BOD has demonstrated time and time again the inability to actually do this.
doing away with the regional/national distinction and taking the top 24 is more of a broad sweeping philisophical change under which i have more faith that we actually will allow the undersubscribed classes die out.
If National racing is ill because the rules for National Categories has made the program ill, the solution is fixing those rules. If I've torn cartilage in a joint, NSAIDs will make me feel better and mask the pain, but it does nothing about the torn cartilage and actually does harm since I'm ripping the joint more. Pain is the body's way of saying "Don't do that, it hurts." Low participation in a Category is the membership's way of saying "Don't do that, it hurts."
If there is some larger issue with the membership that needs addressing, then let the Authorities state that problem.
Define the current situation. What is the problem? So far its been framed in two ways - the desire for a gold medal and pulling the arse of National racing out of the fire into which they voluntarily jumped.
Again, I say... define the problem/disease/issue. Those desiring an official gold medal are a very small subset of the membership and those that are both interested in winning and financially capable of persuing a Runoffs (tm) berth are very much in the minority.
I think the answer cannot conceivably be yes since the question hasn't even been defined. What we have hear is a solution in search of a problem to solve. Move IT to National because <insert problem here>. This smacks of verdict first, trial second.
What is the problem that is trying to be solved?
What are the causes/sources of that problem?
Answer those questions and then the issue of whether moving IT to National status might be relevant, but from where I'm sitting, it seems that some people think that this move will solve every crisis in the club, turn water into wine and prevent me from constantly flat spotting my tires. And while I'm in favor of something that will do the later, I really doubt the ability of this proposal to do that.
I would think a membership exploratory commitee would be assigned to that task, not "change the status of IT" to fix a perceived gap in the membership. Refer back to the debate about wings, forced induction and AWD, that is the untapped membership pool. There are bigger issues that need to be addressed within the club. IT is not the panacea that solves a recruitment issue. Moving IT to national has more to do with personal agendas than it does to do with fixing problems.
.02
R
JoshS
New member
I agree with both of those two statements. But who said that this proposal that was discussed at a driver's meeting somewhere had anything to with a recruitment issue?
JoshS
New member
I already said that, in my opinion, the SCCA doesn't have entry level classes. The SCCA has entry level races -- regional races.
shwah
New member
I am not the guy you just described, but I still would go national, and expect to be competitive. The best answer to every racing challenge does not reside in the bank account.
I have about $10k into my car over 5 years of building and 5 years of racing, buy my gas at the Citgo station, and count on good performances to enable me to afford good tires (contingency). I pull my car on a $1000 open trailer behind a $4000 conversion van, and often camp at the track.
I would love to take that same low buck effort to the runoffs and compete with the guys with lots of money and multiple car efforts, because they are probably really fun and challenging to race against. I don't understand why anyone would be critical of someone else for being fortunate - why not just be happy for them, and if you can beat them be happy for yourself too.
You did. Post #103
"It's likely being proposed to address a larger issue with the membership."
R
tom_sprecher
Super Moderator
Kirk, is this true? I heard that back in your day the wheel had yet to be invented.
You see, this is exactly how nasty rumors get started.
IMHO there to many agendas and not enough money to pay for them. Eliminate the distiction, reduce the total number of races and let the market dictate who goes to the Runoffs and which classes get one of the 24 groups. No matter how it's organized you have to pay to play at the pointy end of the field. Otherwise, try to at least have some fun.
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gran racing
Super Moderator
Man, we need to look up which scribe it was when he really blasted the BOD about rules creap then!
JoshS
New member
But not recruitment. I meant our current membership. I should have been more precise.