ITS Ford Mustang(s) Build - Stripper Stang Part II
- Thread starter Ron Earp
- Start date
chuck baader
New member
Ron, you might want to try the NASCAR boom tube setup on your car. My 6 cylinder registers 97-98db everywhere without a muffler. Chuck
Ron Earp
Administrator
SCT Advantage. Some of the V6s ECUs are "cracked", which means Advantage gives you full control over all Ford parameters which are OEM. The OEM ECU can even do individual cylinder spark control as well as a host of other features, so in that regard it is on par with the some of the best stand alone units. The downside is that the the interface is somewhat obtuse compared to Megasquirt, however, it does give you access to everything you'd need to change while still leaving intact as much of the OEM programming/logic/enviroment/development for things like cold start, hot start, and so on which you know Ford has got down pat.
Ron
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Ron Earp
Administrator
I we agree on most of these points. The brakes are really damn good, despite the weight, and if these are "bad" brakes on a 27XX lb car then I envy the folks that have even better brakes in ITS. Coming fom the Z background of having to worry about brakes all the time, these are fantastic.
Power is definitely average, but we have the dyno sheets to show that in comparison to the other cars we know. It has a broad power band but it is shy of the power brokers or base cars in ITS - RX7s, 280Z, TR8s, etc.
Right now we're understeering a fair amount but I think we can dial it out, as well as the steering effort and vagueness. Development will continue and we'll get them right. Still, I'm pretty damn happy a couple of days later and optimistic that we'll have a strong running ITS car later this year.
These cars are particular though and like any ITS car take a lot of time to develop, so, while the initial buy in of a Mustang isn't expensive I don't want someone to think that these cars are inexpensive to build and develop. The truth is they are probably more expensive to work with than other ITS cars that are better known quantities.
I fell into that trap somewhat as the Mustang parts are cheap, that is the replacement parts are cheap, but you don't use many replacement parts, or, off the shelf parts for suspension and so on. And, the Mustang outfits are of little use to a road racer, plus, specific to these cars, V6 engine work and development out there is basically of no use since it is geared toward drag racing and illegal modifications. So, what I'm trying to say is I like the cars because I like Fords, Mustangs, and fabrication work, but, if you don't like that then beware. There isn't an outfit that you can call that can tell you exactly what to do like you can with a Z, RX7, Miata, and some other IT cars. Fair warning, you might be in uncharted waters....
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spawpoet
New member
How many times did you have to adjust the rear drums out Friday? Tune the carbs? Lock down the rocker arm adjusters?
On the serious side congrats. Friday must have been very satisfying. A couple of questions. Obviously you find it more driveable than a Z, but by comparison does it feel like a heavier car? Only Stang I ever drove was Tim's Cobra, and it was very heavy and felt that way. Also I'm curious as to how far your times were from what you normally ran with the Z at VIR.
On the serious side congrats. Friday must have been very satisfying. A couple of questions. Obviously you find it more driveable than a Z, but by comparison does it feel like a heavier car? Only Stang I ever drove was Tim's Cobra, and it was very heavy and felt that way. Also I'm curious as to how far your times were from what you normally ran with the Z at VIR.
Ron Earp
Administrator
Heck no, there are folks far more knowledgeable than we are - we're learning from Dave Brown, Ron, and all the ITB Mustangers, as well as all the AS guys, AIX folks, and so on. Fox/SN95 are really similar, except for the tiny little cosmetic differences, and the basic principles apply. We appreciate all the help that folks have given us.
None. None. And None. That was a good day.
Mustang V1.0 is a mixed bag. It is heavier than my Z by a couple hundred pounds, but, while you can feel that the times don't show it that much. The best I ever ran in my Z at VIR was a 2:17.x, Jeff Young a 2.17.1, and while we have a slight power advantage on the Mustang we're dealing with a huge handling deficit - Mustang V1.0 simple isn't as tuned and developed as the 260Z. And, comparing lap times from a Z in 2010, dyno results from 2009 and 2012, well, none of that can be good science. That said, I'm pleased we were able to turn times that were somewhat competitive and I feel we can best those times with development.
We're looking forward to doing more development and getting the cars competitive. Next up on deck is Jeff G's Mustang that already has changes, ones we put in this morning, that we think will improve it over Sleestak.
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Ron Earp
Administrator
The red car went out for a 30 minute shake down run. All is good. We did discover a radiator hose with a leak of some type that we'll fix. Being able to run a car on the street is a valuable thing, especially with new cars.
So, I'm thinking Jeff G will make the CMP Memorial Monster, at least for the test day. Sleestak will be there as well. Oh, BTW, someone asked where that name came from and it is easy:
Green = Lizard
Orange = 1970s = Land of the Lost
Lizard + Land of the Lost = Sleestak
So, I'm thinking Jeff G will make the CMP Memorial Monster, at least for the test day. Sleestak will be there as well. Oh, BTW, someone asked where that name came from and it is easy:
Green = Lizard
Orange = 1970s = Land of the Lost
Lizard + Land of the Lost = Sleestak
Ron Earp
Administrator
I would think maybe "Godzilla" would be a better name than Sleestak...
It might be, but then the expectations are raised considerably. Steestaks just walk around and hiss a lot. We can live up to those standards.
Ron Earp
Administrator
Mustang #2 Done!
Mustang #2 is now done and sporting a few graphics for its logbook photos.
Both cars got out for a bath this afternoon and then a little Sunday driving on the street. Stang #2 has to have a fuel line repair that we learned about on the drive, but better here than CMP on Friday morning.
Mustang #2 is now done and sporting a few graphics for its logbook photos.
Both cars got out for a bath this afternoon and then a little Sunday driving on the street. Stang #2 has to have a fuel line repair that we learned about on the drive, but better here than CMP on Friday morning.
Ron, either of you guys running on Saturday. If you are add me to your crew list, i'd be glad to help you guys out. Since my car is still apart and a no go on driving till August I have some free time on my hands. TIA Chris Braunlich
Mustang #2 is now done and sporting a few graphics for its logbook photos.
Both cars got out for a bath this afternoon and then a little Sunday driving on the street. Stang #2 has to have a fuel line repair that we learned about on the drive, but better here than CMP on Friday morning.
JeffYoung
New member
ITS Mustangs at CMP
I'll let Ron do the heavy duty splainin' but let's just say that the Roostang race debut was extraordinarily good.
I drove a test session and then practice/qual/race for the Carolina Cup race and these cars are FUN to drive. Handle great, really good brakes (who said Roostangs couldn't stop?), fantastic midrange.
Have some issues to sort but this cars will be very, very good ITS cars.
Que Ron....
I'll let Ron do the heavy duty splainin' but let's just say that the Roostang race debut was extraordinarily good.
I drove a test session and then practice/qual/race for the Carolina Cup race and these cars are FUN to drive. Handle great, really good brakes (who said Roostangs couldn't stop?), fantastic midrange.
Have some issues to sort but this cars will be very, very good ITS cars.
Que Ron....
Ron Earp
Administrator
Thanks fellows, Jeff G and I do appreciate the comments. The cars did draw a lot of attention over the weekend, especially from corner workers and folks who spend a lot of time watching racing. More than a few told us they were really pleased to see something new on track. I'm happy that the cars made it through the weekend and were reasonably competitive on their first outing. There is much work to do now with development, but as Steve says at least they didn't hit the trailer on day one. Thanks for Central Carolina's Region for hosting one of the best race weekends of the year, the Memorial Monster. Lots of racing, good folks, and a real pleasure to attend.
Jeff and I both ran the test day on Friday and we learned much useful information about the cars. We were testing many different things although you might not know it from first inspection. While the cars are similar, there are differences and when driving the cars back to back you can definitely feel them. Among the things we experimented with were rear gear ratio, roll centers, shock settings, tire types/sizes, exhaust system, and of course all the usual suspects like pressures and bar settings.
We had to solve a few gremlins on the red car during the test day, but Sleestak ran without incident and simply behaved like a big Miata - insert gas, turn key and drive. By the end of the day the red car was doing the same thing, therefore, that was a win for the team all around that was celebrated with some grilling and beer.
The Good:
*Brakes - man o man, whoever told me these cars wouldn't stop couldn't be more wrong. Single piston calipers can get it done.
*Rear end - In short, this stick axle works like a champ.
*Predictable - no vices, snaps, or bites. The car is very honest and lets you know a bit ahead of time what is going to happen. You decide if you want it to happen or not.
*Midrange power - lots of it. The red car has more top end than Sleestak and we know what needs to be done there. Both motors run at 190F, oil pressure around 70psi, and keep doing their thing lap after lap (except for that missed shift Jeff G had on Sunday).
*Stability - the platform is big with a longer than average wheelbase, a bit heavy, but that lends itself to being stable. This thing loves itself some curbs.
The Bad:
*Front suspension tuning - We have lots of learn about setting up the front and getting it to do what we want. I think Jeff is a bit generous when he says they "handle great" - they handle decently, but great, well, that might be a stretch. We think the basic pieces are there to improve them, but we'll need to spend a lot of time tuning in order to learn to get the maximal effectiveness out of it. Welcome to race car development.
*Oink - The minimum weight on this car is akin to the main chorus in that old En Vogue song, You Ain't Never Gonna Get it.
*Size - These cars are large and they do feel that way. Heavy might be the wrong word, but large is more of a proper fit. Jeff said I eclipsed the Miata in one section of the track, the Miata disappeared, just like a magic trick.
The Ugly
*Nothing really ugly about the cars, just that we've got a lot of work to do to be in the hunt at places like RRR, VIR, Daytona and probably RA, although the latter I've never been to. CMP might be the best track for the car but we'll see how it goes. We know we have engine development to do, but more importantly at this stage is chassis tuning. It basically turns and stops, but we want it to turn and stop well.
I don't do so well in writing up race details and Jeff can comment on his experiences in the CCPS. Basically the car ran well and was competitive, although not at the top tier ITS level where Steve, Jeff Y, Steve P, Chuck, and others play. On Saturday I qualified in 2nd place for ITS and finished second. Chuck Hines and I had some good battling going on in that race and everything was clean and smooth. Good racing with Chuck being glued to me for most of the race around the track. He got around me twice and I was able to get back around him and take second place, far behind Steve E in the extremely well-driven and prepared RX7. Jeff G kept his Mustang in the race but wasn't able to keep it in the top three, however, he's never driven CMP so I think he was doing exceptionally fine.
Jeff Y and Ron M ran the CCPS on Saturday and did well with it. They were on the pole for ITS and finished first in class, down only a place to the overall leaders of the race. Sleestak got a little metal on plastic love though in T11 with a slower Miata, but the damage was minimal and didn't hamper the car from returning to the track.
For the Sunday SARRC I didn't qualify to potential. I wasn't driving on my marks and was slower than Saturday. Steve E and Chuck H did well though, with Chuck picking up a couple of seconds over his times on Saturday and Kent T also improving, so those three fellows had spots 1-3, while the two Mustangs started fourth and fifth. I followed the leaders for many laps until eventually Chuck and Kent's battling for second allowed me to catch up to them. I couldn't get around Chuck, but, patience prevailed and I was able to get around him when he made a mistake, but there was no way I could catch him or Kent. I didn't drive well and know it, late on throttle, early on braking, too much lifting, so if you watch the video keep your comments to yourself!
Finished third and was very happy to even be in the hunt for wood. Jeff G had to retire the red car due to a money shift, but we don't know how much money that cost - yet.
Here are some pictures from Rob Bodle and in car from the race on Sunday. I'll try and get part two from Sunday up and maybe some from Saturday too. But these damn Traqmate conversions and uploads to Youtube take some time.
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IId91QeZoI&feature=youtu.be
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZWm96vL7UI&feature=youtu.be
Jeff and I both ran the test day on Friday and we learned much useful information about the cars. We were testing many different things although you might not know it from first inspection. While the cars are similar, there are differences and when driving the cars back to back you can definitely feel them. Among the things we experimented with were rear gear ratio, roll centers, shock settings, tire types/sizes, exhaust system, and of course all the usual suspects like pressures and bar settings.
We had to solve a few gremlins on the red car during the test day, but Sleestak ran without incident and simply behaved like a big Miata - insert gas, turn key and drive. By the end of the day the red car was doing the same thing, therefore, that was a win for the team all around that was celebrated with some grilling and beer.
The Good:
*Brakes - man o man, whoever told me these cars wouldn't stop couldn't be more wrong. Single piston calipers can get it done.
*Rear end - In short, this stick axle works like a champ.
*Predictable - no vices, snaps, or bites. The car is very honest and lets you know a bit ahead of time what is going to happen. You decide if you want it to happen or not.
*Midrange power - lots of it. The red car has more top end than Sleestak and we know what needs to be done there. Both motors run at 190F, oil pressure around 70psi, and keep doing their thing lap after lap (except for that missed shift Jeff G had on Sunday).
*Stability - the platform is big with a longer than average wheelbase, a bit heavy, but that lends itself to being stable. This thing loves itself some curbs.
The Bad:
*Front suspension tuning - We have lots of learn about setting up the front and getting it to do what we want. I think Jeff is a bit generous when he says they "handle great" - they handle decently, but great, well, that might be a stretch. We think the basic pieces are there to improve them, but we'll need to spend a lot of time tuning in order to learn to get the maximal effectiveness out of it. Welcome to race car development.
*Oink - The minimum weight on this car is akin to the main chorus in that old En Vogue song, You Ain't Never Gonna Get it.
*Size - These cars are large and they do feel that way. Heavy might be the wrong word, but large is more of a proper fit. Jeff said I eclipsed the Miata in one section of the track, the Miata disappeared, just like a magic trick.
The Ugly
*Nothing really ugly about the cars, just that we've got a lot of work to do to be in the hunt at places like RRR, VIR, Daytona and probably RA, although the latter I've never been to. CMP might be the best track for the car but we'll see how it goes. We know we have engine development to do, but more importantly at this stage is chassis tuning. It basically turns and stops, but we want it to turn and stop well.
I don't do so well in writing up race details and Jeff can comment on his experiences in the CCPS. Basically the car ran well and was competitive, although not at the top tier ITS level where Steve, Jeff Y, Steve P, Chuck, and others play. On Saturday I qualified in 2nd place for ITS and finished second. Chuck Hines and I had some good battling going on in that race and everything was clean and smooth. Good racing with Chuck being glued to me for most of the race around the track. He got around me twice and I was able to get back around him and take second place, far behind Steve E in the extremely well-driven and prepared RX7. Jeff G kept his Mustang in the race but wasn't able to keep it in the top three, however, he's never driven CMP so I think he was doing exceptionally fine.
Jeff Y and Ron M ran the CCPS on Saturday and did well with it. They were on the pole for ITS and finished first in class, down only a place to the overall leaders of the race. Sleestak got a little metal on plastic love though in T11 with a slower Miata, but the damage was minimal and didn't hamper the car from returning to the track.
For the Sunday SARRC I didn't qualify to potential. I wasn't driving on my marks and was slower than Saturday. Steve E and Chuck H did well though, with Chuck picking up a couple of seconds over his times on Saturday and Kent T also improving, so those three fellows had spots 1-3, while the two Mustangs started fourth and fifth. I followed the leaders for many laps until eventually Chuck and Kent's battling for second allowed me to catch up to them. I couldn't get around Chuck, but, patience prevailed and I was able to get around him when he made a mistake, but there was no way I could catch him or Kent. I didn't drive well and know it, late on throttle, early on braking, too much lifting, so if you watch the video keep your comments to yourself!
Finished third and was very happy to even be in the hunt for wood. Jeff G had to retire the red car due to a money shift, but we don't know how much money that cost - yet.Here are some pictures from Rob Bodle and in car from the race on Sunday. I'll try and get part two from Sunday up and maybe some from Saturday too. But these damn Traqmate conversions and uploads to Youtube take some time.
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IId91QeZoI&feature=youtu.be
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZWm96vL7UI&feature=youtu.be
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spawpoet
New member
Congrats on the great results first time out Ron. It's always nice to see hard work pay off like that. Watching the video it's interesting to see where you were strong vs. the two Mazdas. You definitely have a lot of midrange. Also the car sounds great on the in-car. It's weird watching your tach though . How many IT cars are up-shifitng at 5300 rpm, and NOT going for a lower gear at 2700 rpms?
. How many IT cars are up-shifitng at 5300 rpm, and NOT going for a lower gear at 2700 rpms?
spawpoet
New member
My bad. I forgot about your TR. Also didn't realize the 325 didn't rev more. Anyways it's pretty impressive for you guys to be running towards the pointy end of the field so early in the Mustangs development.