Letting off Steam

Problem is, there's no real rule stipulating what apex someone might pick.

My parallel is that, in a FWD strut car for which big turns (e.g., VIR or Summit T1) are a curse, I tend to turn in later than the rear-drive cars running similar lap times - a la Miatae, ITB BMWs, etc. I think they consistently turn in "too early" and are prone to poke their noses in when I'm on my actual fast line. Different horses for different courses - or the same course, actually...

My point there however was that, say, approaching a right-hand corner, a driver can start on the right edge of the road, move left (one "move") somewhere on the straight, then turn into the corner wherever he pretty much damn well pleases and it's still not "two moves."

Understand here that this is all in the abstract because I have no first-hand understanding of how your deal went down.

K
 
What was the other protest about? Same people handling both incidents? Sounds like a real mess.................... making NASA look clean, and I'm getting tired of that very crowded run group. They start on the back and have been for 5 years. I like both groups(NASA and SCCA) but this weekend sounds screwed up....plus why is there no info about the results.....shouldn't this be highlighted on this forum? I can't wait to run ITS this fall but do not want to head to the body shop.

Greg
 
gpeluso said:
What was the other protest about? Same people handling both incidents? Sounds like a real mess.................... making NASA look clean, and I'm getting tired of that very crowded run group. They start on the back and have been for 5 years. I like both groups(NASA and SCCA) but this weekend sounds screwed up....plus why is there no info about the results.....shouldn't this be highlighted on this forum? I can't wait to run ITS this fall but do not want to head to the body shop.

Greg
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Greg, I think things will be alright as long as the races start on the main straight. I'll argue that starting on the back straight and then trying to settle into a queue going through a longish segment like Madness is insanity... Also, make sure ITB #21 (white VW) isn't in your field...
 
Eagle7 said:
It was 21. Once I get this transmission rebuild figured out I'll see if I can post some video. Will also be interesting for those that weren't there to see what those starts were like.
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Thanks Marty, for verifying the car number. Would love to see the video.
 
The other protest involved Matt Green (ITB and Pat Kane (ITS). Pat was lapping Matt, Matt pointed him by, and then Pat ran into the right rear of Matt's car. Some sheet metal damage on the right rear, just behind the rear wheel, however the hit was hard enough to bend the rear axle. You have to understand that the rear axle on the Chargers is a solid beam that weighs about 40-45 pounds. Anyway, Matt's weekend was finished. BTW, this is Matt's side of the story. We had a lot of time to talk since he stopped by my house to pick up a replacement axle. The protest was well founded, however Pat claimed that his tires went away causing the hit. You be the judge.
 
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My wife and I watched that video last night; she said the exact same thing happened to her at the end of Sunday's quali race! Only diff, she saw it coming and bailed off-track... and cracked the fuel tank as a result. Finished the race, but had to go home without running the last race.

She thinks it was probably the same guy, too. :(
 
Wow!

I just wanted to say, I had a great time at Mid-Ohio this weekend. I met a lot of great passionate racers / drivers and fans.

I did run about 15 laps with #21 Ray on Sunday after the wreck and I thought he gave me plenty of room. He might of "chopped" me in Madness once, but I didn't feel the need to wreck the guy or be mad at him.

I wasn't pushing it at all since the first time I ever saw the track was on Friday night. And if anyone followed me at any point during the weekend, I was braking, way, way early at the end of the straight away. So I was not going to push my luck.

Sorry for your guys contact through out the weekend, I didn't have any and I didn't go off the track either, which was nice.

I will return, probably not this year, but I will return.

Had a great time #00 ITB Mustang
Tom - Waterford Hills regular
 
EBSNASCAR said:
I just wanted to say, I had a great time at Mid-Ohio this weekend. I met a lot of great passionate racers / drivers and fans.

I did run about 15 laps with #21 Ray on Sunday after the wreck and I thought he gave me plenty of room. He might of "chopped" me in Madness once, but I didn't feel the need to wreck the guy or be mad at him.

I wasn't pushing it at all since the first time I ever saw the track was on Friday night. And if anyone followed me at any point during the weekend, I was braking, way, way early at the end of the straight away. So I was not going to push my luck.

Sorry for your guys contact through out the weekend, I didn't have any and I didn't go off the track either, which was nice.

I will return, probably not this year, but I will return.

Had a great time #00 ITB Mustang
Tom - Waterford Hills regular
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Tom, if #21 is the ITB VW with checkered rear quarters, he is the one who knocked me out of contention with the Porsche becaues he either doesn't care or watch his mirrors even though I had my headlights on and blue flags were waving. He did chop me off at madness. I will thank him the next time I see him!
 
Tom-

Thanks for the video confirmation. If I can manage to edit my in-car, you'll be able to see me point the Acura by going into 7, and HEAR (and almost feel) the intensity of the hit from the Acura. I am still very sour about the situation, for several reasons:

1. I clearly pointed him by and left room, and did so because I saw that not only was HE (the Acura) coming, but that he was obviously racing the Miata, and I didn't want to screw that up. For that consideration, my car needs serious repair.

2. While the protest was well-founded, no action was taken because the SOM found "no malicious intent" on the part of the Acura driver. I cannot disagree with that (I don't think he *meant* to punt me), but part of being a race driver is having your car under control, and being able to race (AND allow others to race) in very close quarters. Intent is not the point. GCR 6.11.1 (the foundation of my protest) states this clearly, and makes no mention of intent. My protest was only officially filed AFTER I spoke to the Acura driver, and while apologetic to a point, he stated that since I pointed him by, he expected me to let him "have the track" (not an exact quote, but a paraphrase), and that the real cause of the incident was that his tires had been going away, and that he really lost them at that point. After 5-10 minutes of calm, rational conversation (as much as I could at that point, I felt he didn't "get it", and I informed him that a protest was filed, and that I was going to confirm that with the Chief Steward at that point (the CS asked me to talk to the guy before making my protest official- I hadn't because until I spoke to the Stewards, I wasn't calm enough to talk to the guy constructively).

3. The guy LEFT THE TRACK prior to speaking to the SOM on Saturday. Again, I *clearly* informed him of the protest, and he even commented to the Hoosier Tire guys on Saturday afternoon (which I confirmed) that the bad tires ruined his race, and that there was even a protest pending. This information was all presented to the SOM, yet they took no action.

I'm most disappointed in the fact that I feel like the driver of the Acura left the event thinking that his involvement in the hit was incidental, and that he was in a place at a time with not ideal equipment, and that the equipment shortcoming initiated the event. I feel that he needs to work on his interacting with traffic, and better master handling his car in situations that may not be what he expected. I don't hold malice towards him, and would go back out on track with him in the future, but I protested in the hopes that someone could get the message across to him. I felt I had not, and now I feel the SOM did not attempt to do so in the proper manner.

I've decided that I will probably nnot appeal the decision, but I will be contacting the SOM and CS later just to share my thoughts as I've presented them here.

Thanks for listening... :)

BTW Tom, thanks for showing me that I need to continue to work on my lines at MidO. I hope that I did OK for it being my first event there, but I know I have a long way to go...


Oh, and thanks a LOT to Bill for the moral support and the axle. It was one heck of a weekend.
 
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Tires? Maybe if he didn't try entering the turn from all the way on drivers' right there would have been a different outcome.

And if it were me, I'd probably protest the penalty (or lack thereof). Intent plays no part and its allowing these types of decisions to stand only makes a mockery of attempts to self-police our sport. It appears that the driver took little responsibilty for his actions and the SOM even less so.

And I'd be asking Tom for the original tape to use as new evidence.
 
Matt: How was the rest of your trip home? Hope the new axle works for you. Thanks for all the great information on setup and the help packing up. I have started my todo list for Labor Day.

BTW, I will need to know how to get a hold of the video you shot in Madness Sunday.

Great meeting you and Matt this weekend.
 
ShelbyRacer said:
2. While the protest was well-founded, no action was taken because the SOM found "no malicious intent" on the part of the Acura driver. I cannot disagree with that (I don't think he *meant* to punt me), but part of being a race driver is having your car under control, and being able to race (AND allow others to race) in very close quarters. Intent is not the point. GCR 6.11.1 (the foundation of my protest) states this clearly, and makes no mention of intent. My protest was only officially filed AFTER I spoke to the Acura driver, and while apologetic to a point, he stated that since I pointed him by, he expected me to let him "have the track" (not an exact quote, but a paraphrase), and that the real cause of the incident was that his tires had been going away, and that he really lost them at that point. After 5-10 minutes of calm, rational conversation (as much as I could at that point, I felt he didn't "get it", and I informed him that a protest was filed, and that I was going to confirm that with the Chief Steward at that point (the CS asked me to talk to the guy before making my protest official- I hadn't because until I spoke to the Stewards, I wasn't calm enough to talk to the guy constructively).
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WTF? I mean really, WTF?
Let me list the things wrong with the above...
1. The Chief Steward asking you to talk to the guy. Hey, that's a courtesy that one driver might extend to another, but a race steward has no business suggesting, let alone asking, that you speak to the other driver. It's my choice whether I want to do that or not. It's his job to manage the event according to the GCR and talking to the other driver is not in the GCR. You've got 30 freaking minutes to protest and you've already lost one-third of that getting back to the paddock and up to the tower.
2. The Chief Steward asking you to talk to the guy when you are clearly really torqued. What the hell is he hoping to accomplish - a couple of 2.8.1 violations?
3. Intent? Intent? Jesus on a pogo stick! There's nothing in the GCR about intent. Hell, how many times have you been part of a group that was a bit physical and the CS gave the group a Come-to-Jesus talk? So now it is OK to hit another driver as long as you didn't intend to do it?
4. The SoMs leaving their testicles at home. Look, nobody wants to be the bad guy, but for kee-rist's sake, that's their job. It's pretty darn simple - if you don't want to hand out penalties and hear protests, then don't be a fracking SoM.
5. The supps for the event being gone as far as I can find: I want to know who the SoMs were.

I've decided that I will probably nnot appeal the decision, but I will be contacting the SOM and CS later just to share my thoughts as I've presented them here.
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You've got to appeal, otherwise you condone the system where noting is done to overly aggressive drivers.

Sorry to hear that the weekend had to end early. You going to be at the Double?
 
All the shit on the weekend, the punting of the Shelby, the flap between ITRs #10 and #15, and the actions of the demonic driver in the #21 ITB VW all point to a CS and SOM that didn't want to do their jobs. They wanted nothing of all the paperwork and investigating, etc. that these events would have entailed.

Half the stuff that goes on in any race never gets fully sorted because the "officials" in the control towers are sometimes too damn lazy and just want to get on to the beers. How do I know? A well-respected person in SCCA who often serves as a CS and on SOMs once commented as much...

This weekend's IT fest was an event that Group 2 drivers are going to remember for a long time to come. I wouldn't be surprised if some stay away next year...
 
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You've got to appeal, otherwise you condone the system where noting is done to overly aggressive drivers.
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I have to agree. The easy way out is to let this slide, but if you're still sour that probably won't be as simple as you may try to convince yourself. In this case, by appealing you can help correct a drivers action and stewards. Letting it all go means that you really can't complain next time it happens to you, or someone else.
 
RedMisted said:
All the shit on the weekend, the punting of the Shelby, the flap between ITRs #10 and #15, and the actions of the demonic driver in the #21 ITB VW all point to a CS and SOM that didn't want to do their jobs. They wanted nothing of all the paperwork and investigating, etc. that these events would have entailed.

Half the stuff that goes on in any race never gets fully sorted because the "officials" in the control towers are sometimes too damn lazy and just want to get on to the beers. How do I know? A well-respected person in SCCA who often serves as a CS and on SOMs once commented as much...

This weekend's IT fest was an event that Group 2 drivers are going to remember for a long time to come. I wouldn't be surprised if some stay away next year...
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DING, DING, DING! Winner!

It's been that way since I went to my first SCCA Club race in 1980. But don't be the guy who falls afoul of some particular issue that this brand of steward cares about, because they WILL find time then...

K
 
RedMisted said:
All the shit on the weekend, the punting of the Shelby, the flap between ITRs #10 and #15, and the actions of the demonic driver in the #21 ITB VW all point to a CS and SOM that didn't want to do their jobs. They wanted nothing of all the paperwork and investigating, etc. that these events would have entailed.

Half the stuff that goes on in any race never gets fully sorted because the "officials" in the control towers are sometimes too damn lazy and just want to get on to the beers. How do I know? A well-respected person in SCCA who often serves as a CS and on SOMs once commented as much...

This weekend's IT fest was an event that Group 2 drivers are going to remember for a long time to come. I wouldn't be surprised if some stay away next year...
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Chris is right..showing my age but Chief Stewards like Charlie Rainville in the 60's ruled NER with an iron hand and most of this Sh*t didn't happen. Granted...different times and no large fields of spec pinatas, but whatever Charlie did....it worked.:dead_horse:
 
EBSNASCAR said:
I just wanted to say, I had a great time at Mid-Ohio this weekend. I met a lot of great passionate racers / drivers and fans.

I did run about 15 laps with #21 Ray on Sunday after the wreck and I thought he gave me plenty of room. He might of "chopped" me in Madness once, but I didn't feel the need to wreck the guy or be mad at him.

I wasn't pushing it at all since the first time I ever saw the track was on Friday night. And if anyone followed me at any point during the weekend, I was braking, way, way early at the end of the straight away. So I was not going to push my luck.

Sorry for your guys contact through out the weekend, I didn't have any and I didn't go off the track either, which was nice.

I will return, probably not this year, but I will return.

Had a great time #00 ITB Mustang
Tom - Waterford Hills regular
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Tom,

Man! You were wringing the crap out that 'Stang on Sunday. Great job! I stopped by your pit 2-3 times to talk but never caught up with you.

I was in the black/orange ITB Civic behind you and the #21 VW for those same 15 laps. I agree that all three of us raced clean for that stint. I even talked with the #21 driver after Sunday's race and he commented on how close but clean the three of us drove. In the end I got around you both, and had Heckman in my sights, but there just weren't enough laps remaining.

However, I have multiple videos showing the #21 chopping/blocking/wrecking at least 5 other cars during the weekend. He never did any of that to me, but I can see why others are understandable upset with the #21.

Dan
 
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