Lime Rock - what are they preparing for?
- Thread starter Andy Bettencourt
- Start date
Jeremy Billiel
New member
I would agree Greg. Well said...
Matt there are challenges with the track, but please be a bit tactful. We have an entire group of people who are spending hundreds of hours a month on making this happen, myself included. A very large generalization like that is unwarranted IMO.
RSTPerformance
New member
I don't know how palmer got into this conversation, other than it is the answer to all our dreams 
I certainly hope that it happens, and if anything is going to happen as far as getting a new track in the northeast, the people involved (far more than one) will make it happen. It is a great group with some individuals that are far more dedicated that myself and most others that I know combined.
Raymond "I fully support and appreciate the efforts
I am just wondering what the statue will look like at the enterance 
" Blethen
I certainly hope that it happens, and if anything is going to happen as far as getting a new track in the northeast, the people involved (far more than one) will make it happen. It is a great group with some individuals that are far more dedicated that myself and most others that I know combined.
Raymond "I fully support and appreciate the efforts
I am just wondering what the statue will look like at the enterance " BlethenMatt, you've never been involved with construction projects, thats obvious. The bull-dozing is the easy part. Planning Boards, Sellectmen Meetings, Board of Health, Conservation Commissions are all part of the process, and require countless meetings, paperwork, filings, engineering and legal consulting etc etc.. So shush on that one, you make a fool of yourself..
Lime Rock: They dont want us there, they put a gun to our head and said pay or dont play. Its obviously a business decision, racers dont run the facility anymore. Sadly, several people I know had planned to attend the double and canceled due to the price. Their attitude was F@#! Lime Rock, but LR doesnt collect the fee at the gate. The SCCA region suffers, and less events are planned at LR, LR wins. Lime Rock should consider changing their name to LIme Rock Drivers Ed International.
Lime Rock: They dont want us there, they put a gun to our head and said pay or dont play. Its obviously a business decision, racers dont run the facility anymore. Sadly, several people I know had planned to attend the double and canceled due to the price. Their attitude was F@#! Lime Rock, but LR doesnt collect the fee at the gate. The SCCA region suffers, and less events are planned at LR, LR wins. Lime Rock should consider changing their name to LIme Rock Drivers Ed International.
1. The FAA has taken advantage of 9/11 to restrict alternate uses of airports. You know those racers are a very suspicious bunch.
2. Having followed a north east skiing forum, there has been much discussion of the difficulties faced in opening or improving a ski area in the NE. If there is that much of a problem dealing with a few lift motors or water pumps, imagine the hoops needed to be jumped through for a "dirty" race track.... Hmmm.. then again with all the extant ski areas, has anyone thought of trying to pull a Wilmot Hills at a NE ski area?
3. the "non spectator" event is actually a later SCCA development. Originally, SCCA races was all about the spectator. Of course, it was also the case that most regions only put on a handful of events each year at most. Then again, the above mentioned ski forum is full of stories about ski areas that have disappeared since we entered the litigation era, gone away along with our big spectator events.
2. Having followed a north east skiing forum, there has been much discussion of the difficulties faced in opening or improving a ski area in the NE. If there is that much of a problem dealing with a few lift motors or water pumps, imagine the hoops needed to be jumped through for a "dirty" race track.... Hmmm.. then again with all the extant ski areas, has anyone thought of trying to pull a Wilmot Hills at a NE ski area?
3. the "non spectator" event is actually a later SCCA development. Originally, SCCA races was all about the spectator. Of course, it was also the case that most regions only put on a handful of events each year at most. Then again, the above mentioned ski forum is full of stories about ski areas that have disappeared since we entered the litigation era, gone away along with our big spectator events.
itracer
New member
I hate to say this, but maybe you guys should start autoX'ing, but you'd probably get greef trying to line-up a parking lot.From what you guys are writing, it is a sad day in the NE.
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Auto-x can't find sites. They are suffering too. Zoning here takes forever, but if you make it that far, it makes the rest seem really easy.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Sometimes, MAtt is tolerable, then, he goes and blows it by being a total asshat.
This is clearly one of those times. But he's "been around the block" and "knows how these things work".
And he's clearly got his finger on the NE pulse from Fl or Palo Alto, or wherever he happens to be.
Dan, seriously, New England has become very difficult to find places to race...parking lots have dried up. I used to run the autocross events in Stratford on the long runway. Ahhh...those were the days! That facility is long gone....they sold that section of the land to developers.
Local Sports car clubs have been reduced to essentially having bi monthy meetings....
If Palmer fails....I hate to think what will happen. It's what, the tenth possiblie site we've found in a ...has it been ? ,..... 5 year search?
Even the NH project, which was supposed to be all about drivers ed, seems to have stalled for the last time.
This is clearly one of those times. But he's "been around the block" and "knows how these things work".
And he's clearly got his finger on the NE pulse from Fl or Palo Alto, or wherever he happens to be.
Dan, seriously, New England has become very difficult to find places to race...parking lots have dried up. I used to run the autocross events in Stratford on the long runway. Ahhh...those were the days! That facility is long gone....they sold that section of the land to developers.
Local Sports car clubs have been reduced to essentially having bi monthy meetings....
If Palmer fails....I hate to think what will happen. It's what, the tenth possiblie site we've found in a ...has it been ? ,..... 5 year search?
Even the NH project, which was supposed to be all about drivers ed, seems to have stalled for the last time.
dj10
New member
Jake, what are the New England SCCA Regions going to do? They can't be making any money on LRP, people are now racing there now because of the prices, so I hear. Are NHIS and Palmer are your 2 hopes for the future? Can your regions sustain themselves? Your future looks bleak for the roadracing aspect.
Maybe it's time for another revolution up there in New England. Maybe a tea party or 2. I'll move up there, just vote me in as Governor of Mass. my 1st act would be to level the west side of Boston and put in one hell of a race course and I'd get it done faster than the CRB can decide what to do with the ECU rule. 
Dan,
Leave Boston alone it's not a bad town....Hartford..now thaaaat's another story. I once won a contest and the Grand Prize was a week vacation in Hartford....second place was two weeks!!!!
Hartford would make a great race track. "New Englands rising star"....what a joke.
R
Leave Boston alone it's not a bad town....Hartford..now thaaaat's another story. I once won a contest and the Grand Prize was a week vacation in Hartford....second place was two weeks!!!!
Hartford would make a great race track. "New Englands rising star"....what a joke.
R
tdw6974
Member
The permits, paper work can be damn near insurmountable and take years. Take a look here http://www.rauschcreekracing.com/rcmp/index.php All the permits,Studies are DONE a Financial backer is needed. I'm sure if when Palmer has all the permits etc etc then they too will need the financial backing also. A shame that Rausch Creek can't be completed Yes it is further from NE than Pocono but has easy access. Tom W 
tdw6974
Member
I'm curious as to what those other expenses are...
Matt, Perhaps the treasurer of one of the Calif regions would give you exact figures on a race. Here are some of catergories that go into a typical Race weekend. Program Entry list printing, Worker Fund Payments(after driver Donations), Registration & Photo ID supplies, Trophies, worker favors, Insurance, Sanction fees,Track rental,worker/driver crews party, meal tickets for workers, NYSRRC assesment, NARRC assessment,MARRS assessment, When track is rented if we run over then overtime charges apply. TW
bg43wex
New member
race weekend cost break down for a single regional with spectators @ LRP
rent 53000.00
insurance 32.00x200= 6400.00
lunch tickets 2 days 200x8.00= 1600.00
end of day party friday 175x12.00= 2100.00
end of day party sat 60x6.00= 360.00
beer+wine 375.00 per keg 1200.00
lrp golf carts [email protected] per day 400.00
NARRC fee 200x6.00= 1200.00
snacks,ice+fluids 300.00
trophies 1050.00
sanction fee 450.00
volunteer giveaway 600.00
SRF+FE compliance fee 270.00
total expenses $ 68930.00
I would call this a low ball estimate I'm probably 3-5% low, food prices were based on 06 #'s
food and liquor other than snacks+ice must be purchased from LRP (contract).
if you could guarantee 250 entrants $350.00 could cover the costs, unfortunatley we have no guarantee anyone will show.
because we can't predict with any certanty how many will enter you would plan for 180 and hope for 200.
rent 53000.00
insurance 32.00x200= 6400.00
lunch tickets 2 days 200x8.00= 1600.00
end of day party friday 175x12.00= 2100.00
end of day party sat 60x6.00= 360.00
beer+wine 375.00 per keg 1200.00
lrp golf carts [email protected] per day 400.00
NARRC fee 200x6.00= 1200.00
snacks,ice+fluids 300.00
trophies 1050.00
sanction fee 450.00
volunteer giveaway 600.00
SRF+FE compliance fee 270.00
total expenses $ 68930.00
I would call this a low ball estimate I'm probably 3-5% low, food prices were based on 06 #'s
food and liquor other than snacks+ice must be purchased from LRP (contract).
if you could guarantee 250 entrants $350.00 could cover the costs, unfortunatley we have no guarantee anyone will show.
because we can't predict with any certanty how many will enter you would plan for 180 and hope for 200.
RSTPerformance
New member
Thanks Brian... I also appreciate the "going for 180, hoping for 200" It is realistic.
Raymond
Raymond
Some missing items:
2% fee from the Region board of directors - $1,300
This races share of the road racing board's operational costs - about $4,000
Money earmarked for new track development - ????
Operational expenses are those things not directly related to a single race, yet are expenses that must be covered. For example:
Year end trophies
Phone bills
Photo IDs
Radio equipment and service (F&C net and Stewards net)
Tech Equipment
Fire extinguisher servicing
Sound control equipment and service (yearly calibration)
Emergency services equipment and service
Postage
Printing
Timing and scoring equipment and supply.
F&C School and Fire School
So, it looks like Brian's numbers are more like 10% low, and that doesn't include anything for new track development.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Oh it's not doom and gloom, it's just people coming to realize what it takes to race at LRP.
$89 more than a typical NHIS Double. Great? No. A death sentance? Hardly.
$89 more than a typical NHIS Double. Great? No. A death sentance? Hardly.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
I have dipped just a toe in this process, but one item bears repeating...the fees you see above for the food, beer, wine and carts are non negotiable. If you dont want to pay them, you don't race at Lime Rock.
And that brings up yet another "squeeze" in the situation. Worker numbers are fading, and reducing the "benefits" they receive (food, wine, beer, giveaways) won't help that.
So, while it appears on the surface that there is an area that could be trimmed, I suggest that's not really the case.
Dave Patten
New member
Jake,
The NH project you refer to is, I assume, Club Motorsports, Inc in Tamworth, NH. The developers have every State and Federal permit required to build the project. A portion of the Army Corps of Engineers permit is being questioned by the opposition, but the approval has not been rescinded. CMI requires resolution of the ACOE permit and only one Town Planning Board, Special Use Permit to have everything needed to build the facility. The SUP approval has been denied by the Planning Board and is now under appeal. Tamworth has no Zoning Ordinance, as such there is no Town authority to appeal to on the Planning Board’s decision, CMI was forced to take court action in the Carroll County Court to question the correctness of the Planning Board’s decision.
The project opposition comes from a local group called Focus:Tamworth, specifically formed to oppose this project. One of this group’s key members is Kate Vachon, who is rumored to be a “trust fund baby” worth $400 million. She appears to be funding the opposition's efforts. Focus Tamworth has initiated 2 of the 3 court cases currently surrounding this project. FT’s tactics appear to be, cause as many delays and expenses as possible, in hopes the CMI’s investors will give up on the project.
CMI’s investors have been reported as having $500 million in personal net worth. The 256 acres of land that the track will sit on is owned by CMI. This is a very well funded group of individuals that are very passionate about and committed to completing this project. I have personally been in contact with both the current and past CMI presidents. They and all of CMI’s investors are resolute in completing this project.
Yes, the progress is stalled at this point pending court decisions. But with the current investment in land, engineering costs and the investor’s passion to build the facility, they are not going away quietly or without an all out fight.
This project, completed or not, will have an impact on the motorsports community in New England. It may even set new case law in NH before it is over. If not for any other reason than a learning experience, the progress of CMI’s project should be watched.
The NH project you refer to is, I assume, Club Motorsports, Inc in Tamworth, NH. The developers have every State and Federal permit required to build the project. A portion of the Army Corps of Engineers permit is being questioned by the opposition, but the approval has not been rescinded. CMI requires resolution of the ACOE permit and only one Town Planning Board, Special Use Permit to have everything needed to build the facility. The SUP approval has been denied by the Planning Board and is now under appeal. Tamworth has no Zoning Ordinance, as such there is no Town authority to appeal to on the Planning Board’s decision, CMI was forced to take court action in the Carroll County Court to question the correctness of the Planning Board’s decision.
The project opposition comes from a local group called Focus:Tamworth, specifically formed to oppose this project. One of this group’s key members is Kate Vachon, who is rumored to be a “trust fund baby” worth $400 million. She appears to be funding the opposition's efforts. Focus Tamworth has initiated 2 of the 3 court cases currently surrounding this project. FT’s tactics appear to be, cause as many delays and expenses as possible, in hopes the CMI’s investors will give up on the project.
CMI’s investors have been reported as having $500 million in personal net worth. The 256 acres of land that the track will sit on is owned by CMI. This is a very well funded group of individuals that are very passionate about and committed to completing this project. I have personally been in contact with both the current and past CMI presidents. They and all of CMI’s investors are resolute in completing this project.
Yes, the progress is stalled at this point pending court decisions. But with the current investment in land, engineering costs and the investor’s passion to build the facility, they are not going away quietly or without an all out fight.
This project, completed or not, will have an impact on the motorsports community in New England. It may even set new case law in NH before it is over. If not for any other reason than a learning experience, the progress of CMI’s project should be watched.