March FasTrack is up!

Good point-counter point on the ignition system.

But my question is simple...if you can remove any 'instrument' by your definition, then you are saying it's legal to gut the whole dash of all of its switches?

I just don't live in the grey like that.

And just because you have to remove something to facilitate an install, doesn't mean you don't have to put it back when you are done if it fits back together.

This is why our cars have ALL the switches they came with...not even a whiff of illegality. It isn't worth it.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967

www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
Good point-counter point on the ignition system.

But my question is simple...if you can remove any 'instrument' by your definition, then you are saying it's legal to gut the whole dash of all of its switches?

IAB
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As a matter of fact, Andy, I do think the rules as written, allow the "gutting" of the dash board. Mainly because installation of an underdash horizontal bar often requires it. And the idea of adding switches that replace old switches and retaining the old switches flies in the face of "common sense" which as I have said evidently has unfortunately no place in the formulation of these rules.

As Scott said way back there, passenger door glass and turn signal stalks serve no purpose, get rid of them.

Respectfully,
GRJ
 
Originally posted by grjones1:

As a matter of fact, Andy, I do think the rules as written, allow the "gutting" of the dash board. Mainly because installation of an underdash horizontal bar often requires it.

Respectfully,
GRJ
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I gotta tell ya as a guy that builds cages for a living this is BS 100% This is an effort to stretch the rules well beyond breaking. Not a big deal cause you have already stated that you don't believe in your reading enough to do these mods. PS an exhaust valve is fully covered in the engine section of the rulebook and would never be considered a part of the exhaust system.
 
I would be careful staing that most have done these mods because I am willing to bet that's not the case.[/B][/QUOTE]

Joe, that may be true on the West Coast. I don't believe it is in the Mid-Atlantic area. Again, I may be wrong, but many of my competitors agree. And no one wishing to remain in the good opinion of his counterparts would protest the replacement or removal of switches.

And tell me Joe. Have you ever put a cage in a Fiesta? Because if you have the forward horizontal must be placed where all of the old controls were placed or it would be so low as to smack the shins of the driver at every bounce. I respect your 25 years of experience, but again there are circumstances you and I both do not always fully comprehend.

GRJ



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 13, 2005).]
 
PS an exhaust valve is fully covered in the engine section of the rulebook and would never be considered a part of the exhaust system.

[/B]
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Nor as pretty much commented on would a push switch and toggle be considered as part of an "ignition system" as put in context. Which was germane to the discussion.
GRJ
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Have you ever put a cage in a Fiesta? </font>
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Why yes I have and it was the first cage I ever built that got tested. Car destroyed cage in perfect shape. You would only have to remove that stuff if you wanted to. You need to have a full imagination when solving those problems but if I remember (about 8 years ago) I bent the tube for the cross bar and fed it back to the front legs allowing full use of everything. Just because the guys in your division don't have stuff doesn't mean it is legal and if your so sure it is then why do you still run the stuff. It all boils down to wanting to stay inside the rules. The rules are fairly black and white for IT and it is my desire to get along and not protest people that alllows them to creep. The system relies on me to protest to keep the rules fair for everyone. If you want to remove all of those things then send a letter which is the way to change things.
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
I bent the tube for the cross bar and fed it back to the front legs allowing full use of everything. Just because the guys in your division don't have stuff doesn't mean it is legal and if your so sure it is then why do you still run the stuff.
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Joe,
I am not an engineer (obviously) but bending a cross brace is not my understanding of how to efficiently maintain the integrity (strength) of that brace (its reason for existence). But I again respect your consideration for your interpretation of the rules. And if my guys don't "have stuff, it's because of how they interpret the rules as they have a right to do.

I explained why I retained my stalks. Sorry that bothers you.

GRJ


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 13, 2005).]
 
interpret the rules as they have a right to do.
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Wrong! Please read your GCR....Try rule number 1.2.4 to start and then you will see where your thinking is incorrect.

If the bent tube is installed correctly you loose no integrity(provided it is welded correctly) There is no rule governing the cross bar other than it must be there.

[This message has been edited by Joe Harlan (edited February 13, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Joe Harlan (edited February 13, 2005).]
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
Wrong! Please read your GCR....Try rule number 1.2.4 to start and then you will see where your thinking is incorrect.

There is no rule governing the cross bar other than it must be there.

).]
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Joe,

Precisely. All this says is that interpretations will not be "strained or tortured," which itself is quite subjective. But your references has given another, more interesting, rule: that the ITCS has precedence over the GCR, which means that the GCR Glosary should be subordinate to the ITCS, which suggests that the ITCS use of "instrument" may not have to be subordinate to the Glossary definition." Wow! Thanks!

And I can't believe ITCS 9.C. reads as it does because the rulesmakers did not want to allow the removal of items to facilitate installation of safety items such as the dash area cross brace.
Thank you.
GRJ
 
GRJ, as many others have come to the conclusion that you are a waste of time and bandwidth I think I will sign off here. You are looking for a loophole that's not there yet you continue to push it. Anyone willing to file a proper protest on this issue will recieve my support in doing so to get a proper answer. The definition of gauge or instrument in the GCR is the only one that counts....You can type all you like after this as I won't respond your reply cause you don't even have enough sack to do the things you say are legal.
 
Why Joe, because I won't give in to tunnelvisioned, myopic interpretations? Believe me Joe I have "enough sack" to do anything, even put up with people who refuse to seriously consider other people's opinions and who continue to ignore facts.

GRJ



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 13, 2005).]
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">...I have "enough sack" to...put up with people who refuse to seriously consider other people's opinions and who continue to ignore facts.</font>
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Wow! Did anyone else besides me hear "The Twilight Zone" jingle while reading that...?
 
smile.gif
smile.gif
 
***There is no rule governing the cross bar other than it MUST be there.***

Joe, ya need to be careful when talking about rules. I'm always lurking.
wink.gif


GCR, Showroom stock:

"One(1)bar is RECOMENED in a horizontal plane between forward cage braces in the dash area."

Joe, recomended, recomended, recomended, ya know as in ya MAY if ya want & not ya SHALL because the rule says so.

I agree with the corn shock, it needs to stay in place.

Have Fun
wink.gif

David
 
Ok Dave, I stepped on my johnson....Recommended is correct but if your gonna have me build a cage it is required or I won't take the job. This is also true for nascar style doorbars and fuelcells. Funny cause touring requied the bar.
 
Originally posted by GregAmy:
Wow! Did anyone else besides me hear "The Twilight Zone" jingle while reading that...?
Click to expand...

Actually, my old friend Greg, I didn't...but what I DID hear was the sound of fingers on the chalk board, the popping of strings on a guitar, the sound of an anvil dropped on a grand piano, and the sound of the rulebook being tossed in a tree shredder, because evidently the glossary means very little to some who feel they know better.....



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
because evidently the glossary means very little to some who feel they know better.....
[/B]
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No, Jake, it's only that by the GCR's own words the Specifications take precedence over the Glossary (part of the GCR). (Unless the item is not addressed by the Specification...") And in this case the item is addressed because the writer said "Gauges and instruments", meaning that "instruments" carries a meaning beyond "gauges" that the Glossary fails to recognize.
GRJ


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 14, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 14, 2005).]
 
[/B][/QUOTE]
Amy,
You are making it apparent that The Twilight Zone is where you spend most of your time.
GRJ


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 14, 2005).]
 
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