March FasTrack is up!

With respect, David - it's not about the specific part being used as the example du jour.

It's about how, if we don't follow the rules as written, we have to sort the "stuff that really matters" from the "trivial things."

What if something is trivial in my region but it matters when I go to the ARRC, or to a particular tech inspector or steward who doesn't like my face?

If you get beat by 2 seconds over a 20-minute race, how trivial does an advantage have to be to make that happen?

Is something LESS trivial if in fact I beat you, than it is if I don't? How do we work that dynamic out among a bunch of people who race one-another over the course of a season?

Do you really want to run under a sanction that is as inconsistent as the one described here?

K
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">B]</font>
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Well Joe, now I'm really concerned. If you have never heard of a "switch" being referred to as an "instrument," then you have not read too many service manuals. Again I refer you to the VW, and many other, manuals and I can give you the names of many service technicians (not engineers) who will report same.
Im really not trying to make you angry, but your lapse in terminology is much the same as that which gets us into these picayune squabbles. And of course the possibilty that there is a great deal out there that neither of us knows. The difference, I think, is that some of us can admit it.

GRJ



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 11, 2005).]
 
Well, I hate to jump into this hornets nest of discontent.
smile.gif

But as a 25 + year member of ISA, as in Instrument Society of America, let me put this to rest. A switch IS an instrument. It does send a signal that indicates something. It can be manual or automatic. It can indicate position or be used to make something else indicate position. It can indicate level, pressure, temperature, flow, or exceeding the setpoint of some variable. A switch is an instrument per The Instrumentation, Systems and Automattion Society. Back to the soap opera.

Edit to add :
For more info go to www.isa.org and for more switches than you can shake a stalk at try http://www.isadirectory.org/online/master.cfmthen click on 'products' and type in "switch" in the search window.

[This message has been edited by Mike Guenther (edited February 12, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Mike Guenther (edited February 12, 2005).]
 
Originally posted by Mike Guenther:
Well, I hate to jump into this hornets nest of discontent.
smile.gif

But as a 25 + year member of ISA, as in Instrument Society of America, let me put this to rest. A switch IS an instrument. It does send a signal that indicates something. It can be manual or automatic. It can indicate position or be used to make something else indicate position. It can indicate level, pressure, temperature, flow, or exceeding the setpoint of some variable. A switch is an instrument per The Instrumentation, Systems and Automattion Society. Back to the soap opera.
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Thank you, Mike. These are the days of our lives.

GRJ
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
Ok Cool I loose, Bet I win the protest....
smile.gif
Wanna take that bet?
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And once again, logic, fair play, and common sense take a flying leap.

I can't be sure, but I might have a fair shot at winning the bet in the DC Region, eventhough you are a member of the ITAC. Don't let your position go too far to your head.
smile.gif


GRJ



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 11, 2005).]
 
If it will make anyone happy, when my car is finished I'd be happy to remove the steering column stalks and coordinate a protest and appeal.

I happen to think Joe is right, but I'd be just as happy if he is not (not personal, just that I'd be happy to be able to remove the stalks).


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
I can't be sure, but I might have a fair shot at winning the bet in the DC Region, eventhough you are a member of the ITAC. Don't let your position go too far to your head.
smile.gif
Click to expand...

GRJ, Joe is not a member of the ITAC. Even if he was, I don't think the position would ever go to his head. While I don't always agree with him, I've always thought he is fair, reasonable, and consistent.

BTW, winning a protest in DCR doesn't mean anything. It's the appeal that does ultimately.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
haha...Me a member of the ITAC...You couldn't give me the job for pay let alone being a volunteer. Sportsmanship is playing inside a reasonable set of rules and proving you can out drive your fellow competitior. Sportsmanship is not looking for every misplaceded comma or poorly structured sentence to try to beat a hole through a rule. If 95% of the IT group still has a turn signal switch then I would bet money that your view is not correct. As far as winning in your division goes more power to ya, I'll win in the COA where it counts.
 
Originally posted by Geo:
BTW,
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I stand corrected, George. ( I still have trouble knowing to whom I am speaking.) And I mean't no disrespect for the members other than even when some are shown to be not so correct in their assessments, they do at times appear to be more authoritative than informed.

I would, for example, hope that you would find a DC Region protest decision to be very important. (And please don't allow anything I say to reflect on the region. I'm just a participant.)

GRJ
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
Sportsmanship is playing inside a reasonable set of rules and proving you can out drive your fellow competitior.
Click to expand...
I concur, and I believe I do the same. The operative term here is "reasonable set of rules." Which unfortunately must be determined by looking at those commas and discovering what sometimes contradictory evidence must ultimately prove.

I don't believe, at least in my venue, 95% still have stalks, and I don't believe "Instruments and gauges may be altered, replaced, or removed," is a poorly constructed sentence. I beleive it means exactly what it says. It's the glossary definition of "instruments" that is flawed.

But now I'm beating a belabored horse.
Thanks for your indulgence.


GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 11, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 11, 2005).]
 
Ah, the winter months when there is little racing. Don't ya just love it.

There has to be some better topics we can spend our energy on. Hmmm...

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
I would, for example, hope that you would find a DC Region protest decision to be very important. (And please don't allow anything I say to reflect on the region. I'm just a participant.)
Click to expand...

GRJ, no disrespect to you or your region, but the regional protest would only be to set up the more meaningful appeal.

And as I said, when my is done, I'd be happy to be the Guinea Pig.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by gran racing:
Ah, the winter months when there is little racing. Don't ya just love it.

There has to be some better topics we can spend our energy on. Hmmm...

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Yea Dave, like whether to buy a trailer or register a car!???
smile.gif


GRJ
 
Cccaa...aan't dooo it.... Getting suuuccckkked innnnn..........

oh no.....must resist...

OK, so the whole basis of the "turn sgnal stalk removal is legal" arguement is that when they wrote the rule, that's what you (GRJ) THINK they meant, but you think that, (although an automovive engineer might differ), that somewhere down the road, over the years, someone ELSE, wrote the definition, and you THINk that THEY didn't do their homework, because THEIR definition doesn't fit YOUR definition???

Priceless!

Here's a hint...Write a letter, get the rule, or the definition changed, or get the things back on the car if you want your car to be legal. Lest the phrase "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" be uttered to you when you have issues with your competitor being under weight or running the wrong carb, or the wrong cam, or.....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
OK, so the whole basis of the "turn sgnal stalk removal is legal" arguement is that when they wrote the rule, that's what you (GRJ) THINK they meant, but you think that, (although an automovive engineer might differ), that somewhere down the road, over the years, someone ELSE, wrote the definition, and you THINk that THEY didn't do their homework, because THEIR definition doesn't fit YOUR definition???

Priceless!

Here's a hint...Write a letter, get the rule, or the definition changed, or get the things back on the car if you want your car to be legal. Lest the phrase "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" be uttered to you when you have issues with your competitor being under weight or running the wrong carb, or the wrong cam, or.....

[/B]
Click to expand...

Gee whiz, Jake, read the thread! I think the definition of "instrument" is not what "I think," it's pretty well established and the writer of the glossary whoever and whenever got it wrong.

And I don't "think" "Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced or removed," means what it says - that's what it says!

Let me ask you this: How many of you who disagree with my reading have installed push button starter switches or toggle switch ignition switches? Because if you have and you think that this rule doesn't mean what it says then you are illegal. Toggle switches and push buttons are not "gauges," they are switches. Nothing allows you those trappings but this statement. And you can't apply it in one instance and not the other.
GRJ
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
Gee whiz, Jake, read the thread! I think the definition of "instrument" is not what "I think," it's pretty well established and the writer of the glossary whoever and whenever got it wrong.

GRJ
Click to expand...

And that statement is my proof ot the "GRJ law", which is ..."I am the center of the universe"

(Has it occured to you, that the definition in the glossary is as they intend it to be, regardless of your more "common, or well known engineering" definition?)



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
Exactly! We agree. So are signal stalks.
biggrin.gif


K
Click to expand...

Exactly, K. Signal stalks are switches just like toggle fuel pump, ignition, etc. switches. And again I ask what rule are you using to install those switches. And if you are using the rule, which I beleive you must that you can add, replace or remove gauges and instruments then you must allow removal of turn signal stalks.
Because the rule applies in both directions. You are admitting that indeed stalks are switches and in turn are instruments and can be removed as the rule says.

Please tell me you follow this.

GRJ
 
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