March FasTrack is up!

Originally posted by Knestis:
but it would STILL be a good idea to define the process and assumptions behind it.


Not to mention that it would discourage such obvious deviations as the Jetta example. Much easier to wiggle numbers if people don't know how you arrive at them.

That the ITAC can answer a question like, "How much would my Borgward likely have to weigh if it were in ITB?" is evidence that they assume that spec weight should be set based on a desire to get a good fit

Glad you mentioned that Kirk. For anyone on the ITAC, what's the process say the Jetta should weigh?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
To my knowledge we don't have a very large clue from which magic forumla IT car weights are selected from. Just as in Production we don't have a clue which magic formula is used to class new cars.

IMHJ MY FRIENDS, FOR WE THE MEMBERS TO HAVE ZERO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THESE MAGIC FORMULAS IS WRONG.

Example of wrong is: I would love to race my 1st gen RX-7 (in production specs) in H or G Production. Lets not get into the specs or minimal cars to race with stuff. I have asked plenty of questions of those in the know including the existing Production drivers & all I get is BULL $HIT reasons why the car will be to fast or dont fit.

Put the magic formula on paper just like the rules are written on paper, allow us to fill in the blanks & go racing. If there is a screw up now & then change the assigned class. If someone had their life savings & retirement plan money involved in building the car that would be their issue.

RANT OF................
smile.gif


Have Fun
wink.gif

David
 
David,

Here's a not so magical formula:

More available information = less control



------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
I have written many formula's for car classification over the years and I have seen others that were written. The problem with any formula is they cannot be applied to all cars and have a proper outcome. It still takes a little common sense (scary) I think the biggest problem with printing something flatout is that it will be used as a hammer to beat the crb over the head with. Sometimes a round car just won't fit a square class even if a formula says it should.
I believe that sometimes when a mistake is made pointing it out will help get it corrected. There are way to many times that rather than just pointing it out the mistake gets used like a hammer again to beat someone over the head with, At that point the system shuts down and nothing gets done.
 
Bill,

Don't know what to tell you on this one. I will put in on our next agenda. The weight doesn't make sense to me, but I am just one guy. This is the kinda thing I will fight to 'correct' but, as always, the CRB has the last say.

I respect Jeremy a great deal and need to hear more from him.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967

www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Just for the record... My notes from the November con-call read as follows:

6) IT 04-047 Reclassify VW GTI to ITA
NOTES: Move to ITA at a weight of 2475lbs.


Keeping in mind that this is the first I've read about this, I'd have to say it was a typo... They wouldn't just ADD 400lbs to our recommendation without talking to us first...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
6) IT 04-047 Reclassify VW GTI to ITA
NOTES: Move to ITA at a weight of 2475lbs.


Which is what was posted in FasTrack. My question is about the Jetta, and why it's 405# more.

/edit/ Darin, I just relayed what John told me. He looked in the file, and said that the additional weight was a concious decision.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[This message has been edited by Bill Miller (edited February 10, 2005).]
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Which is what was posted in FasTrack. My question is about the Jetta, and why it's 405# more.

/edit/ Darin, I just relayed what John told me. He looked in the file, and said that the additional weight was a concious decision.


What I was told is that the CRB/Tech Dept. saw that the Jetta was "the same" and added it to the list on their own... we didn't know about it to my recollection...

I believe the weight is a mistake and it actually looks like they may have used the VR6 specs for the Jetta instead of the GTI specs... We are working on getting this straightened out now.




------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
I want FF heads allowed for little Fords because federal heads are gittin' scarce, oh well.

Russ[/B]

Russ,
I'll probably be lambasted for this, but FF heads for the Fiesta are legal now - with the afternmarket equivalent OEM rule in place. (As long as you install the standard valves and get one before it was ported beyond 1".

And Scott, you'll be amazed I agree with you (I argued for the same last year, and was as usual brow beaten) - the door glass should go simply for safety and the washer tank, who cares? as others have said, use it for the catch tank, but its removal should be allowed.

And Kirk, I believe turn signal stalks are removable within the instrument alteration rules. Unless of course you wish to argue my reading of the rules. (Sarcasm mine)

G. Robert


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 10, 2005).]
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...turn signal stalks are removable within the instrument alteration rules. ...</font>

What the heck - I'll bite: So is a "turn signal stalk"...

A) "An indicator or readout which, when active, contains information about some aspect of car operation for driver reference"

B) "Mechanical or electronic readouts of automotive parameters"

C) None of the above

Go for it!
smile.gif


K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited February 10, 2005).]
 
Originally posted by Banzai240:
What I was told is that the CRB/Tech Dept. saw that the Jetta was "the same" and added it to the list on their own... we didn't know about it to my recollection...

I believe the weight is a mistake and it actually looks like they may have used the VR6 specs for the Jetta instead of the GTI specs... We are working on getting this straightened out now.



I guess Darin. Although, I don't understand how if it's "the same", why wouldn't the weight be the same? The fact that they would add that much weight to it, and it wouldn't throw a red flag that it was taking that much weight, doesn't do a whole lot for my comfort level w/ the people making the decisions.

But, I guess the important thing is that it gets fixed.


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
What the heck - I'll bite: So is a "turn signal stalk"...

A) "An indicator or readout which, when active, contains information about some aspect of car operation for driver reference"

B) "Mechanical or electronic readouts of automotive parameters"

C) None of the above

Go for it!
smile.gif


K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited February 10, 2005).]

K,
"Instruments" I know as defined in the GCR Glossary are as you described, but the use of "gauges and instruments" in the ITCS stongly implies that the defintion of "instrument" as a switch as well as a gauge was the intent of this rule. [Why if "instrument is simply defined as a gauge would the writers say "gauges and gauges"(I beleieve we have argued this before.)]

But a more defining point would be that alterations are permitted by the installation of safety equipment, and if one installs a releaseable steering wheel (a safety item) more than likely his turn signal stalks would interfere with that installation and need to be removed.

Another point is that the yoke (on a Fiesta for example) that carries the steering wheel locking mechanism, also may carry the light stalk controls and "must be removed" in order to remove the locking mechanism.

And I promise I can deliver testimonials from a miinimum of twenty IT drivers in the DC Region at least that their interpretation of the interior alteration rules allows for removal of the turn signal operating mechanisms. Mainly because one tends to smack the levers and activate his turn signals during competition which distraction may be seen to be a safety issue.

And of course a turn signal switch when activated does "contain(s) information about some aspect of car operation for driver reference" because the switch indicates which signal is actvated by its up or down position.

But of course most of this is based on that dreaded "common sense" argument, which as we all know may be totally disregarded in discussing these issues.

G. Robert
 
I haven't gotten into one of these in a LONG time but the car is packed and ready for the Tarheel HPDE this weekend, and this is like a big ol' lob, too close to the net to pass up...

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">\"Instruments\" I know as defined in the GCR Glossary are as you described, but the use of \"gauges and instruments\" in the ITCS stongly implies that the defintion of \"instrument\" as a switch as well as a gauge was the intent of this rule. [Why if \"instrument is simply defined as a gauge would the writers say \"gauges and gauges\"(I beleieve we have argued this before.)</font>

It makes not a whit of difference what the ITCS 'implies' - the definition is clearly stated. You could just as easily - and accurately - have said...

...but the use of "gauges and instruments" in the ITCS stongly implies that the defintion of "instrument" as a carrot as well as a gauge was the intent of this rule.

If we've argued this before, you've been wrong before.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">But a more defining point would be that alterations are permitted by the installation of safety equipment, and if one installs a releaseable steering wheel (a safety item) more than likely his turn signal stalks would interfere with that installation and need to be removed.</font>

Rollcage, yes. Other "safety equipment?" Show me. Even if it does, I did it, it doesn't, they don't.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Another point is that the yoke (on a Fiesta for example) that carries the steering wheel locking mechanism, also may carry the light stalk controls and \"must be removed\" in order to remove the locking mechanism.</font>

I had to remove a lot of stuff to get to the steering lock on my car - including the signal AND wiper stalks. I was clever enough to remember how it all went on and put it back. I would expect others to be able to do the same or I'd worry that they shouldn't be working on a car that I'm on the race track with.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">And I promise I can deliver testimonials from a miinimum of twenty IT drivers in the DC Region at least that their interpretation of the interior alteration rules allows for removal of the turn signal operating mechanisms.  Mainly because one tends to smack the levers and activate his turn signals during competition which distraction may be seen to be a safety issue.</font>

Do these 20 drivers know that you are telling people that they are such wankers that they flail around in the cockpit enough to turn on the signals? That you think they are ADD enough to be scared off the road by the blinking light on the dashboard? Besides - who CARES? I could get affidavits from 20 of my neighbors here in NC that their interpretation of the US Constitution that black people shouldn't be allowed to vote or own property. That, thank the powers, does not make it right.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">And of course a turn signal switch when activated does \"contain(s) information about some aspect of car operation for driver reference\" because the switch indicates which signal is actvated by its up or down position.</font>

Ever heard the saying, "too clever by half?" This is perfect! Two points for creativity but it doesn't help your argument.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">But of course most of this is based on that dreaded \"common sense\" argument, which as we all know may be totally disregarded in discussing these issues.</font>

Someone - ANYONE - please agree that any of the above mutilated rationale fall anywhere near being "common sense" and I will gracefully cede the electronic field in defeat.

That was pretty funny stuff, Man. Very, very good.
biggrin.gif


K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited February 10, 2005).]
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
And I promise I can deliver testimonials from a miinimum of twenty IT drivers in the DC Region at least that their interpretation of the interior alteration rules allows for removal of the turn signal operating mechanisms.

"All the other kids are doing it" was not a valid defense in Jr. High and it's not here either. Sorry.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
Do these 20 drivers know that you are telling people that they are such wankers that they flail around in the cockpit enough to turn on the signals? That you think they are ADD enough to be scared off the road by the blinking light on the dashboard? Besides - who CARES? I could get affidavits from 20 of my neighbors here in NC that their interpretation of the US Constitution that black people shouldn't be allowed to vote or own property. That, thank the powers, does not make it right.

Three cheers for the right and learned gentleman from North Carolina!


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
And here gentelmen is the frustration that some people have with IT rules as they have evolved. Now I am as big a SCCA nerd as most anyone, but this is frustrating that we have to spend time worrying about turn stalks and washer bottles. I do worry about it because I would rather have a legal car that not. Some one say that a particular rule is stupid and no one will protest so they should not worry about it. But I imagine a world where I am not stuck with the chore of expending resources to restore unnesesary parts to remain legal. I do not think that makes me in favor of rules creep.
dick patullo
 
well, here we go.
Unfortunately I dont have lots of time to be typing on forums, so I'll keep it short as always
Modern cars...Well I like to think of these as models built after the mid eighties. You know, cars you will actually see driving down the road on your way to work today.
Classify them competitively...Well I thought this was self explanatory, especially when it is being discussed elsewhere on this forum.
ITA 88-91 Civic DX should be moved to a more competitive class. (modern car, competitive class). Why?
Well for starters it is a very, very common car with the youngsters of today (you know, the future of SCCA?). You will see this car all day long on the road, and parts are super easy to find, as are aftermarket.
This is a 92hp car that is not being moved with the first gen SI's to ITB, which is also a 90hp car (and nearly 200# lighter then the DX). When is the last time you saw an 87 SI on the road?
Now, this was all covered in this very thread (I hate pouring over old arguements...)
How about the 91 toyota celica GT? At 150 or so HP in IT trim and classed in ITS? The integra GSR is in the very same class with what, 170 HP stock! And barely 100# lighter? And I think it can be argued that the cars are pretty close in all other regards (both are good handling FWD'ers). Soooooo, lets move it to ITA, even if we need to put a little weight on it for the move. Notice how no one is running these? Curious...
There are countless others, but I have already run long. In order to make it so a larger variety of MODERN cars can be COMPETITIVE, there needs to be someone with some common sense classing these cars. Also, the SCCA cant be afraid to adjust weights according to competitiveness, just like the pro's do (world challenge).
matt
 
Actually, the GSR is already reasonably competitive in some areas in ITS, the E36 (another modern car) not withstanding (nothing is competitive with it at the moment). At 170 bhp stock it belongs in ITS.



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
yes, I was comparing the gsr to the celica, saying that the celica should not be in the same class as the gsr because of the major horsepower difference. I agree that the gsr should be in ITS.
I came off kinda strong on here, but can assure I'm a nice guy if met in person. Easy to get carried away on here...
matt
 
Back
Top