March FasTrack is up!

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
These web-boards gererate good ideas and bad ideas. If anyone feels strongly about there idea, write an e-mail to the CRB and get ot on one of our agendas.

crb (at) scca.com

AB


I second this and I'm sure the entire ITAC do as well. This is probably the best response on this thread. Complaining here is just complaining. If you think you have a valid beef over any rule, by all means write the CRB. It is the means by which change generally occurs.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
George,

Last I looked, you were required to run stock rods on an l-p car. You can however, lighten them, just like you can do to the stock crank (something else that's not allowed in IT).

Thank you Bill. I've just started reading through the PCS. Personally I find it a bit confusing keeping full and limited prep straight sometimes.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited February 05, 2005).]
 
Originally posted by Catch22:
By the way.
It makes me giggle to sit here reading how some of you guys think removing washer bottles will lead to the Improved Touring Dark Ages, while at the top of the page there sits a banner advertising ITS BMW rebuilds starting at $6500.

My thoughts exactly, along with other things like $3000 MoTec ECUS, custom gears, etc. I just don't know why it is so hard for some to beleive that some illogical rules should be changed AND THAT IS IT - nothing more. The washer bottle rule is really silly and changing it does not have to lead us to Production cars no matter how many times people want to write on this board that this will happen.

I say follow the GCR the best you can, use common sense, make a safe race car, and enjoy racing the car. That is my plan and I do not have a washer bottle nor is it likely I'll find a washer bottle for my 32 year old ITS race car (Wait! Maybe that is too old and I should be forced to race Vintage since I can't get a real washer bottle part any longer....aghhhhhhhhh...or maybe I should be forced into Production since I can't get a wiring harness any longer and can't make my own since there are no factory procedures, the factory is gone! Help!)

I'm 36 and new to the SCCA. No, I haven't been here long but more than a few people told me the SCCA was highly resistant to change and it seems so. I've yet to be "Assimilated" and if resisting every "new" concept that comes along is part of the SCCA Assimilation process I hope that I do not become "Assimilated".

On the other hand, the SCCA is the best game in town for fun amatuer racing (remember it is supposed to be fun), in my opinion, and I'm happy to be associated with it. I just wish "new" ideas weren't squashed just for the sake of them being "new" and different from "what we've done before" or "how we used to do it".

Ron


[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited February 05, 2005).]
 
I personally don't see any reason to change a rule because somone decided to build an old and unsupported car.

Sure, dump the washer bottle. And in some cars it is part of some other structure and they can dump that too now, because it is the washer bottle.

Lose the passenger side door glass. What about the rear door glass on 4 door cars? Sure, right?

Wire harness? Fix the one you have. I don't understand why people make such a MOUNTAIN out of what is a flat spot in the desert.
 
This site like most starts to crack me up after a bit. Why does anyone that races cars always have to get there ass in a knot over the stupid stuff? If a protest happens over a washer bottle the protestor should be taken out behind the shed and have a washer bottle shoved firmly up their butt. If a common sense repair to a harness isn't allowed then we need to hang it up now. WHat I read here is like watching the republicans and democranks take every extreme position possible to try to make a point. I would be I could walk through the paddock of any regional and find an illegal issue on every car there. Lets all just grow up a bit. This is a dam hobby. If you can't find an OE washer bottle put some plastic pop bottle in its place, At least you tried. It is the big crap that's going to kill IT and it doesn't matter if its 1200 or 25000 for a FI system it is still out of line for this catagory. If you want more but don't want Production then go start your own set of classes cause there are plenty of people that like IT just fine. I race a class called RS cause I wanted to race a WC touring car without having to go on the road to do it. I dig it its fun and I did it with out causing all of my IT customers and friends to run wings and 18 inch wheels. My choice. The rules for the class are now being used in NW region and Calclub also. So I did my part to get what I wanted with out effecting a whole catagory to do it. End of my rant. Now again my feelings are after seeing the things that are happening as of late that the ITAC is doing a very good job on it's forst batch of reclassifications and adjustments. I like the effort some much I am encouraing my customers to stick it out and enjoy the future.
BTW I am only 42.....not the old man David is...
smile.gif



[This message has been edited by Joe Harlan (edited February 05, 2005).]
 
The funny hing about this whole rant is that the 'washer bottle' has become a monster of it's own.

The WB is, in effect, the poster child for IIDSYCYC. Those who argue against it's removal aren't debating the merits of the WB itself (because there is no rule that points to it specifically), but to the fact that you would have to SPECIFICALLY call it out in the GCR if it could stay. There is a hundred other "washer bottle" type parts that people would then want to remove.

This is where the "where does it stop" position comes from.

If I see a car without a WB, I could care less...even if they beat me. But how many little pieces of menutia do I have to find missing, because they just graduated from the school of COMMON SENSE, before I start to feel slighted? 4? 5? 10? Each one of these common sense items would have to be specifically added as allowed in the GCR...

Does THAT mnake sense?

Food for thought.

AB

(Edit: I am 34 years old and a 14 year member...)

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited February 05, 2005).]
 
To David and George,

You guys are beyong me. How you can turn some thoughts about cleaning up silly rules into the IT apocalypse and refer to it as "making them nearly into prod cars" is just plain ludeykrus. Your argument appears to be that the ITAC and Board have no self control and 2 or 3 changes will automatically lead to 25. If we allow the removal of washer bottles and door glass, within 5 years tube framed IT cars will be legal.
I hope that sounds stupid to you, because that is basically what you are saying... One change, the slightest little one, will leas to disaster.
Thats just excellent. Really.

Andy,
The reason I don't believe a washer bottle and passenger side glass (and maybe even heater core) change would lead to anything else is that
1. These are the poster children for stupidity in the IT rules.
2. Nobody really talks about anything else in any sort of volume.

Sure, a few people want some wiring allowances and some other things, but nothing raises hackles like the bottle and the glass. They raise hackles not because that are all that big of a deal, but because its dumb to be required to have them.

I'll say this one more time for those who aren't catching the irony...
I'm required to have door glass that I'm required to keep rolled down during a race.
See... Thats dumb.

And I won't be writing a letter because Evan already said he was going to. But if he doesn't. I will.
I've written several lately, I can write a couple more.
 
What is the purpose of removing some of this stuff? In previous posts, it was to attract younger people to IT, right? Can you define what SCCA's / IT's target market is or should be? Can you honestly tell me that they are not joining IT because of passenger side windows, battery location, ect.? Wasn't this a big part of this argument originally? Or what really is the point of making some of these changes? Honestly, who does it benefit? Oh, that's right, the club and it's future. If you say so. ???

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
 
Scott, I think everybody has your take on what you find stupid by now........

You wanna know what I find stupid? It's haw something so petty can bug you so much.....I bet 100 bucks that when your out on the race track that window doesn't even get thought about.
 
Originally posted by Catch22:
To David and George,

You guys are beyong me. How you can turn some thoughts about cleaning up silly rules into the IT apocalypse and refer to it as "making them nearly into prod cars" is just plain ludeykrus. Your argument appears to be that the ITAC and Board have no self control and 2 or 3 changes will automatically lead to 25. If we allow the removal of washer bottles and door glass, within 5 years tube framed IT cars will be legal.
I hope that sounds stupid to you, because that is basically what you are saying... One change, the slightest little one, will leas to disaster.
Thats just excellent. Really.

Tube framed IT cars? That's not what I'm saying. Not even close. Although I did mention (I think it was this thread) that GT cars weren't even originally tube framed. Tom Davey won the first three GT3 championships with a unibody Scirocco!

I did summarize the rule changes being argued here and asked why not race in LP Production instead since the differences would be few? I also asked how we should differentiate LP Production from IT?

So, yes, really.

And I submit Scott, that if these things really matter to you, YOU would write and not leave it to someone else.

While that admittedly sounds argumentative, it surely is not meant to be. There is no other way to say it. Individual letters mean something. Polls sent in mean little. The very same letter sent by a number of individuals means little. Individual letters do mean something. That's not to say that all are approved. Of course they are not. But sometimes, over time, a lot of letters can create change. But don't forget that people also disagree and write the opposite so not every request actually comes true. But the only real way to make a case it to write. So, I encourage you to write, despite someone else doing the same.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com


[This message has been edited by Geo (edited February 06, 2005).]
 
There is sure a whole of energy spent on the small items around this forum. Door glass? Water Bottle? Useless items on the car!!!

Where was all this energy when the ECU got peeled wide open? It is not just Motec for the BMW's. There are plenty of aftermarket ECU's that fit into the stock housings and to evaluate. Loads of $$$ spent on this endeavor.

If the prevailing winds are such that we are worried about the runaway train, then lets do something meaningful like bring the ECU rule stock less programming (we all know we cannot police the software). *uck the proverbial out of the bottle genie and the folks that have spent the money. I am one of them and I think it is rediculous. But racing being what it is, I am compelled to try and exploit the rules and find an advantage.

Personally, I'd rather just meander out the shop with my bourbon-coke and take the washer bottle off, roll my passenger window up and down a few times and call it an evening.

Rick
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
This site like most starts to crack me up after a bit. Why does anyone that races cars always have to get there ass in a knot over the stupid stuff? If a protest happens over a washer bottle the protestor should be taken out behind the shed and have a washer bottle shoved firmly up their butt. [This message has been edited by Joe Harlan (edited February 05, 2005).]


Joe- I didn't even READ the rest of your comment...but that comment ROCKS! Better yet, take the dude, wait til he uses a porta poddy and knock it over...door side down...in July!

Yeah, common sense is important...the washer bottle has become the standard bearer for dumb items left on the books...it needs to go, to be sure, but the line is drawn not that far upstream of it...I'd rather miss downstream than up, so as far as I am concerned, the washer bottle is dumb, but it's not that big a deal.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited February 06, 2005).]
 
yeah...I'm with you! Who gives a rats ass about the passengers window! leave it in! Less work for me, we all need it so it's not a competiitve advantage either way, and the guys who are worried about it due to safety????...they are race car drivers?????Huh?

Give me another beer and lets move on!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Just a little test: Shut your mind off to the big issue and ask if the rationale for each of the following rule changes is as sound as those presented - in and of themselves - for the passenger glass and washer bottle:

"Turn signals and marker lenses may be removed" - We don't signal on the race track, and when they get hit (they're in the worst place - they get busted. This is expensive, particularly if I race an old car, and the pieces on the track are a safety hazard. The fact that we are supposed to tape them is proof of the above.

"Headlight assemblies may be removed" - Ditto. Air is going to be blowing in the holes, they may be used to provide air to the engine or front brakes.

"Alternate gear ratios available stock in other models of the car being raced may be substituted" - Front drive cars have to bust open the gearbox to change the final drive, it is reasonable to allow them to fit other commonly available individual gear ratios. Rear drive cars should get the same allowance to be fair.

"Aftermarket cams are allowed" - They often cost less than a new stock cam. This is also a common modification to street cars and will attract interest of new members who are used to this type of performance improvement.

"Power steering may be removed or disabled" - Cars would be more reliable, another source of fluid on the track would be eliminated, and it costs nothing.

"Stock windshields may be replaced with a polycarbonate version of the same shape" - Over several seasons, a plastic windshield would be far stronger, less expensive (not as likely to break), and would be far safer since it wouldn't leave glass on the track in a rollover incident.

"Fenders may be modified for tire clearance" - The danger of tires being damaged by fenders would be eliminated in cases where the current rule doesn't allow sufficient room.

"Inner bumper assemblies may be removed or lightened" - Cars that currently struggle to meet minimum IT weight would have a better chance to be competitive.

"Door reinforcement beams or bars may be removed if they interfere with the installation of door bars" - Additional space between the driver and door bars increases safety.

"The '8th pick-up point' of the rollcage assembly may be located anywhere" - Rollcage structures may be more effectively tailored to individual chassis designs, increasing safety at no difference in cost to the current rule.

"Compression may be increased 1.5 points" - Performance would be enhanced across the board without adding signficantly to the cost of building an IT-spec engine, making the cars more fun to drive and exciting to watch.

"Any number of bolt-on chassis reinforcement bars (e.g., strut bars) are allowed" - One is already allowed and this would prevent potential stress damage to the car's chassis.

"Door handles may be removed and latches disabled, provided that doors are securely pinned or fastened shut" - Safety will be increased in rollover incidents if doors can't come open.

"Larger diameter rotors and aftermarket calipers may be fitted, as long as they use the original mounting points" - Safety would be improved as consistent braking performance is assured over the distance of a race. Kits for this type of modification are popular improvements for street cars and allowing them on IT cars would better connect the catagory with the aftermarket and new IT participants.

How many of those options fit within any number of reasonable persons' definition of "common sense?" I've had to explain that IT doesn't allow most all of the above to someone, somewhere over the last year - to which the most common response was, "That's stupid."

K
 
Kirk,

When I started to read the list, I thought you had pulled the options (not the editorializing) from an old PCS.

As I've said before, when the CRB/BoD put the language in the ITCS, that stated that the cars were no longer viewed to be dual-purpose (2000, I think), it was a tacit acceptance of the statement that they are now 'real' race cars. I know that's not how logic theory deals with it, which is why I said it was a tacit acceptance.

The problem (as I see it) lies in the fact that some rules are made that appear to be consistent w/ this view, and others are turned down, that appear to be consistent, but are given the reason that they're "not consistent w/ class philosophy". It's a mixed message.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
Just a little test: Shut your mind off to the big issue and ask if the rationale for each of the following rule changes is as sound as those presented - in and of themselves - for the passenger glass and washer bottle:

-snip-

K

Kirk- I have to complement you on that list. There are som items on there that I'm not sure how I'd react, and I think it did give me a better idea of the "fears" of some that this could "turn into Production" if we're not careful. I especially think that now that Production is going to National IT, um, I mean limited prep, the line is that much more blurred.

Definitely something to think about...


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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."
 
Come on Scott how about a last name so that I may keep a close eye on the Fastrack responses the CRB puts fourth for your washer bottle letter.

Have Fun
wink.gif

David
 
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