March FasTrack is up!

Originally posted by Knestis:
Just a little test: Shut your mind off to the big issue and ask if the rationale for each of the following rule changes is as sound as those presented - in and of themselves - for the passenger glass and washer bottle:

"Turn signals and marker lenses may be removed" - We don't signal on the race track, and when they get hit (they're in the worst place - they get busted. This is expensive, particularly if I race an old car, and the pieces on the track are a safety hazard. The fact that we are supposed to tape them is proof of the above.

"Headlight assemblies may be removed" - Ditto. Air is going to be blowing in the holes, they may be used to provide air to the engine or front brakes.

"Alternate gear ratios available stock in other models of the car being raced may be substituted" - Front drive cars have to bust open the gearbox to change the final drive, it is reasonable to allow them to fit other commonly available individual gear ratios. Rear drive cars should get the same allowance to be fair.

"Aftermarket cams are allowed" - They often cost less than a new stock cam. This is also a common modification to street cars and will attract interest of new members who are used to this type of performance improvement.

"Power steering may be removed or disabled" - Cars would be more reliable, another source of fluid on the track would be eliminated, and it costs nothing.

"Stock windshields may be replaced with a polycarbonate version of the same shape" - Over several seasons, a plastic windshield would be far stronger, less expensive (not as likely to break), and would be far safer since it wouldn't leave glass on the track in a rollover incident.

"Fenders may be modified for tire clearance" - The danger of tires being damaged by fenders would be eliminated in cases where the current rule doesn't allow sufficient room.

"Inner bumper assemblies may be removed or lightened" - Cars that currently struggle to meet minimum IT weight would have a better chance to be competitive.

"Door reinforcement beams or bars may be removed if they interfere with the installation of door bars" - Additional space between the driver and door bars increases safety.

"The '8th pick-up point' of the rollcage assembly may be located anywhere" - Rollcage structures may be more effectively tailored to individual chassis designs, increasing safety at no difference in cost to the current rule.

"Compression may be increased 1.5 points" - Performance would be enhanced across the board without adding signficantly to the cost of building an IT-spec engine, making the cars more fun to drive and exciting to watch.

"Any number of bolt-on chassis reinforcement bars (e.g., strut bars) are allowed" - One is already allowed and this would prevent potential stress damage to the car's chassis.

"Door handles may be removed and latches disabled, provided that doors are securely pinned or fastened shut" - Safety will be increased in rollover incidents if doors can't come open.

"Larger diameter rotors and aftermarket calipers may be fitted, as long as they use the original mounting points" - Safety would be improved as consistent braking performance is assured over the distance of a race. Kits for this type of modification are popular improvements for street cars and allowing them on IT cars would better connect the catagory with the aftermarket and new IT participants.

How many of those options fit within any number of reasonable persons' definition of "common sense?" I've had to explain that IT doesn't allow most all of the above to someone, somewhere over the last year - to which the most common response was, "That's stupid."

K

I have no idea why I'm bothering. I guess its because I'm not sleepy and nothing is on TV, but here goes...

Turn Signals - Good idea Kirk. It is. No purpose and a source of broken plastic on track. We didn't require them in Honda Challenge for this very reason. You could either cover the hole or use it for brake ducting.

Headlight assemblies - Not useless as there are quite a few nightime races for IT cars each year. Also helpful in enduros for flashing lapped traffic. Certainly not a useless item.

Alternate Gear ratios - Expensive and gives an obvious competitive advantage. C'mon Kirk, I'm disappointed in you for this one.

Cams - See above.

Power Steering - Sure. Yank it. Why not?

Poly Windsheilds - I don't see why not. If minimum weights don't change it would be pretty close to meaningless. If someone with deep pockets wants to wasye that money... Whatever. If someone needs help getting down to their minimum weight... More power to them. Have at it.

The rest of it... C'mon Kirk.
1.5 points of compression to make things more fun??? Flared fenders???
Did you really write that stuff?
Were you being serious?

But I'm done now. I simply suggested that we remove some of the "horse and carriage laws" that are still on the books and some of you guys want to suggest that allowing the water bottle to be removed isn't much different than wanting unlimited cams and free gearboxes.
Maybe I'm the dumb one. I guess I am.

Scott = Done here.

PS - David, I have no idea who you are or what you've done, but I've been hanging around this website for a couple of years and have seen pretty much nothing but defeatism, negativity and cynicism from you. Even your patented "Have Fun" signature, taken in context with 90% of your writings, smacks of sarcasm.
I hate to break it to you, but there has been progress in IT. Cars are being reclassed, restrictor plates are being added (for better or worse), and letters to the comp board are being answered with things OTHER than "Shut up, we'll do it our way."
Maybe YOU should be the one to go run in Production??? I think your attitude would be a better fit there.
But thats just my young and uniformed opinion.



[This message has been edited by Catch22 (edited February 06, 2005).]
 
Hey! Lots of funny stuff on this thread. I hope anyone who posted or has an opinion will please reply to my question on the Poll on Rules Changes" thread? Thanks.
 
Originally posted by Catch22:
I have no idea why I'm bothering. ...

I know that it's done out of love, Mon.
smile.gif


I put a range of suggestions in that example knowing full well that some of them were a stretch beyond the magnitude being discussed but I betcha that SOMEONE reading that list thought that they were reasonable.

Hell - dealing with trying to find the LEGAL 4th gear pair required to install the R&P that I found for the Golf has made me dream wistfully of being able to pick and choose from among the common ratios available for my commonly available box. I could put together a GREAT gearset and the going rate is $30-50 per pair for used gears.

K
 
Heck, I certainly thought the first one and the power steering reasonable. But the others were just bait! ;-)

Ron

------------------
Ron Earp
http://www.gt40s.com
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
My electrons don't care if they flow through OEM wires, do yours?
 
I'll be watching Fastrack for your washer bottle removal request. Or is your posting relative to issues/rules that you don't care for just more up front chatter. If I sucked up to your issues/rules thought process in a favorable manner would that make me a GOOD GUY/BUDDY in a white hat?

Have Fun
frown.gif

David
 
David, like someone mentioned here, I really don't think your signature is indicative of your feelings toward most on the board.

At any rate, yes, once I get done building my car and on the track I do plan to write on the issue of "washer bottles". Remember, I'm one of those FNGs and have my first race in Feb, although I'll have to use a different car.

More pressing though for my personal situation will be a letter requesting a parts clarification so that I can obtain a new cylinder head and one allowing me the use of a 4 speed transmission. Seems the ITCS has the year listed incorrectly (73-79, incorrect, 75 is last) but only lists the 5 speed transmission, 75 only equipment. I have both but want to be legal if I run the 4 speed.

So yes, but it'll be awhile and more likely you'll see a request from another member before me. Whether or not you agree with me has no bearing on your "Good guy/bad buy white suit status" - those sorts of things are generally decided on your personal attitude more than thoughts on a given topic.

Ron

------------------
Ron Earp
http://www.gt40s.com
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
My electrons don't care if they flow through OEM wires, do yours?


[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited February 07, 2005).]
 
The poly windshields would not so bad right as a way to get down to min. weight currently, but what about it’s possible long term effects? Would the board ever use this weight savings method when determining future min. weights? You may say no, this current board may even say no but what about the next board? It could easily go from a way to reduce weight into something that could become a necessary mod. to achieve the min. weight.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
 
98 240sx stock windshield 17lbs

lexan MR7 1/4 inch thick 9 lbs

rear window 12 lbs

lexan replacement 8 lbs

Lexan always fogged in cool weather.

Please look at the GT and most of the prod cars running. most are moving back to glass cause you can defog it and use a wiper blade on it. Stuff like this is a waste of time for this catagory.

Kirk the issue I have with the gear set stuff is not everybody can do it so you end up with requests from those that can't.

For any of you that think Dave has a bad attiude your wrong he just can't type emotion. I spent a 2 weeks at Ohio with the old dude and he is far from negative...Anyone that can survive a month on pizza and beer crewing for loshak may tend to get a little crusty in the winter.
I would bet the writer of the original IT rules never ever considered removing the washer bottle was an issue. I do take issue with SCCA in general when they place weights on a car that the car cannot legally achieve. That part needs fixed. I think if a car has proven it will never make weight it should have weight added and dropped a class. For the ITC gang I don't know what to say for you and hope fully we don't have an issue there. I know my old 510 could make it.

Have fun, Have a nice day, Happy trails....
smile.gif
 
Thanks Joe..........

I was going to blister a couple folks with wise mouths but because of your post Joe I will leave those folks alone.

What I do have to say in a mild manner to those with wise mouths is that I have NEVER atacked them personally. I may have attacked their thoughts on rules but never their person or of their method of presentation. There are a couple other people on the two sites I read that have presentation skills that suck worse than mine. Many people blister these folks with what they consider poor presentation skills. I have met (face to face) these people with poor presentation skill & I sit back & laugh because they are great people.

Have Fun
wink.gif

David
 
I certainly don't have any problems with David or most of the people I've met through the IT forum - good community. And, I don't have any problems with folks that disagree with my viewpoints because, after all, they are just my view points and don't mean much. Disagreeing and discussion leads to change in most organizations and I hope the SCCA is no different.

I just wish that we could easily "fix" and lot of the little incongruent details that in many cases defy logic, again, IMHO. We all know what they are and they have different levels of importance for different people - for some the "I can't remove the washer bottle but you can spend $3k on a MoTec" is a big issue, for others it is the weight problems that show up on cars that are the same but have different hp motors (I remember a Honda issue that someone posted not long ago).

I'm sure this thread will generate some letters to the board, at least I hope it will, and maybe we will see some changes that will remove these, IMHO, illogical parts of the IT rulebook. I know that I will write some letters of my own to see how the system works and learn what it takes to instigate change.

Best,
Ron

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Ron Earp
http://www.gt40s.com
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
My electrons don't care if they flow through OEM wires, do yours?
 
Originally posted by rlearp:
I just wish that we could easily "fix" and lot of the little incongruent details that in many cases defy logic, again, IMHO. We all know what they are and they have different levels of importance for different people...

Quite honestly Ron, opinions do vary greatly. Whether it's fundemantal or it does just vary with importance is hard to say, but my guess is it's often just fundemental and often polar opposites.

The other thing I've found is that while this is indeed a microcosm of the IT community, I've found it doesn't really represent the community as a whole. I've found that when I talk with people who are not active here, they often hold VERY different opinions from what is often the consensus here.

This is meant in NO way to be argumentative. It's just an observation to keep in mind should you get frustrated with the process.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Coming in late to the discussion.....

In the Solo rulebook, under the Street Prepared category (in which IT cars are classed, btw) I believe there is a rule which states if a part is no longer available from the factory, then a similar part can be obtained from any source, provided that there's no change in basic spec/performance. I'll have to go look it up for the exact wording.

WHY isn't there something along those lines in the ITCS? Wouldn't something like this go a long way to alleviate problems like washer bottles and such, especially for cars that are getting long in the tooth?

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#59 SSC Neon
Wichita Region
Yes, I know it's not an IT car... yet... :)
 
Originally posted by P Sherm:
Wouldn't something like this go a long way to alleviate problems like washer bottles and such, especially for cars that are getting long in the tooth?

Whoa!!! You're starting to mess with my income now. I don't have 6 MR2 parts cars for nothing - and all but one has an intact washer bottle.
smile.gif
 
Originally posted by P Sherm:
WHY isn't there something along those lines in the ITCS? Wouldn't something like this go a long way to alleviate problems like washer bottles and such, especially for cars that are getting long in the tooth?


You guys need to READ your 2005 ITCS... If you recall, we implemented a rule that allows you to use other than factory replacement parts that meet certain criteria... (if I recall, something to the effect of "exact equivalent OEM replacement" comes to mind...)...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
Originally posted by Banzai240:
You guys need to READ your 2005 ITCS...


You actually expect us to read our GCR's?
smile.gif

J/K

The ITCS statement is similar to the Solo rule with the exception of the "exact equivalent" wording, whereas the Solo rule states "as similar as possible". Personally, I don't care one way or the other, but maybe somebody could argue the semantics of "exact" and "equivalent". I'll use the washer bottle as an example since that seems to be one of the issues - Racer Sam wants to race car model XXX, but no original washer bottles are available new or used. Per the rules does an "exact equivalent" part exist? But "as similar as possible" means he could go to an auto parts store and buy a replacement bottle from the shelf and be legal.

These opinions/ideas are just my .02. Maybe I'm being too simplistic, I don't know.

I really do appreciate what you guys on the ITAC have accomplished so far, in spite of all of us.


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#59 SSC Neon
Wichita Region
Yes, I know it's not an IT car... yet... :)
 
Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Come on Scott how about a last name so that I may keep a close eye on the Fastrack responses the CRB puts fourth for your washer bottle letter.

Have Fun
wink.gif

David


Not sure why Scott isn't telling you but here goes....



Name: SCOTT GILES
Member#: 251063-00
Hometown: LEESBURG GA
Class: ITC
No: 21
Make/Model: HONDA CIVIC


Stephen Blethen



[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited February 09, 2005).]
 
Thanks Stephen, his last name did cross my mind. He may have a reason why he didn't post his last name. That's ok.

P, even tho my response was no to the 5 rules change questions if a person can't find an EXACT used or new buy some sort of washer bottle & put it in place. End of story.

Have Fun
wink.gif

David
 
Hey Andy,

I had occasion to speak w/ John Bauer in Topeka today. Among other things, I spoke w/ him about the 2.0 16v Golf/Jetta move from ITS to ITA. I asked him about the new weight on the Jetta in ITA.

John informed me that the new ITA weight of the car (2935# IIRC) was not a typo, and that was the intended weight. When I asked him why the Jetta got more weight than the Golf, and why the Jetta weighed more than the Golf, when they're essentially the same car, his response was that it was due to the fact that the Jetta was spec'd at a higher weight in ITS.

Based on this, I've got a couple of questions.

In the case of a reclassification, especially in light of the new classification process, what does the 'old' weight have to do with the new weight?

If a car is a candidate for a downward reclassification, and it takes 400+ lbs to make it fit in the lower class, wouldn't it seem to make more sense to take another 100 or so lbs out of it and leave it where it is?

Finally, how do two cars that are essentially identical (w/ the exception of the bodywork) end up in the same class, but ~450# apart in weight?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[This message has been edited by Bill Miller (edited February 10, 2005).]
 
I've grown confident that the ITAC members are all on the same page and thinking progressively but it doesn't surprise me that other folks in the system aren't following the same first principles.

We know that some ITAC folks are actually doing math on the cars, even if it isn't strictly prescriptive to setting race weights, but it would STILL be a good idea to define the process and assumptions behind it.

That the ITAC can answer a question like, "How much would my Borgward likely have to weigh if it were in ITB?" is evidence that they assume that spec weight should be set based on a desire to get a good fit, and the
"Beetle in C" case is evidence that they consider realistic minimums (and indirectly, stock curb weights) as considerations after that step.

Mr. Bauer's response makes it clear that others are doing something completely different. If I were an ITAC member, I'd be pretty sore about this.

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited February 10, 2005).]
 
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