more thoughts on wheels

I have no problem with allowing any diameter wheel on any IT car. Iam tired of hearing people say they would race with the SCCA but they already have bigger wheels and tires and do not want to go back to the specifed size. I do not care if someone wants to race with 20" wheels, I will stick with my 15" wheels on my ITS RX-7 and get tires for half the price of the 20" competitor. If both cars have the same rear gear which one do you tink will out accelerate the other? Since differential ratio is open anyway, you can gear your car however you want without changing wheel diameter. As for someone going down in diameter, it will probably be fairly hard to get a smaller wheel over the existing brakes that must be used. The reason Production cars can use 13 or 15 is because that is all that is available in racing slicks.
 
Darin,

That's my point. Until you open up the wheel rules and allow the guys that are running 13's and 14's to run 15's, you've taken away the ability of the guys w/ 13's to run the potential best tire out there.

And I hardly see a complete re-write of the wheel rules as 'minor tweaking'. That's a pretty significant change in my book.

Now that's the best one I've heard in a long time, IT is losing drivers to SM and NASA because the drivers can't run 16/17/18 inch wheels. You're really grabbing at straws Darin.

And please make up your mind Darin. Either larger wheels are or are not a performance 'upgrade'. You've gone both ways on this one.
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
That's a pretty significant change in my book.
Click to expand...

That's why they are called "opinions"... Everyone has and is entitled to one...




------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
What Bill has proposed is really just a TINY incremental step short of what Darin's straw poll is assessing. Under both proposals, cars that came with 13s can run 15s (they won't choose 14s for the obvious reason), and cars that came with 14s can run 15s.

The anti-creep purist in me would like to stop here. However, another side of me recognizes that the pace of change on this front is accelerating. My puny 2002 Civic came with 15" wheels (oddly, the same diameter as my 1957 Beetle did) and a non-scientific poll of TireRack offerings suggests the same.

I sorted options for my car just by diameter and got...

14" - three choices (again, the source of the problem)
15" - 26 choices
16" - 34 choices
17" - 32 choices

To the extent that racing is driven by the aftermarket (arguments to the contrary notwithstanding), IT arguably should be attentive to this trend.

Look at it this way: If we went with Bill's more restrictive option, we'll be having this conversation again in 5 years, easy.

The only question in my mind is unforeseen circumstances brought on by larger wheels. I can't see any but that's what makes them unforeseen. Any thoughts on this?

K
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
The only question in my mind is unforeseen circumstances brought on by larger wheels. I can't see any but that's what makes them unforeseen. Any thoughts on this?
K
Click to expand...

Great question - and that is why Darin has introduced this topic to this forum. As we exchange ideas on the ITAC, we can't think of everything. So far, we haven't had any resonable arguments against. Keep the thoughtful research and anaysis coming!

I would like Bill to adress my questio to him in my previous post - it's an honest question - it would help me understand his position better.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
For people using 13" or 14" rims...would opening up the wheel sizes in essence cause even less availability of tires and rims in 13" & 14" sizes?

The guy that used to use a 13" rim now changes to a 15" rim. Now there is less demand for the 13" products and eventually may force the person who still wants to run 13" rims into running 15" rims. Some may say that is already the case. And I'm not really sure this would happen.
 
That's really the issue at hand here - supply and demand. It's probably the case that IT racers are a TINY percentage of the US wheel aftermarket so it seems likely to me that we are driven by supply, rather than driving it.

Now race tires are a different deal: I'd venture that SCCA IT racers make up a significant (if shrinking) percentage of that market. We probably do influence supply and, if demand for 13" and 14" rubber decreases (or continues to decrease), it becomes relatively less attractive to tool up and make them.

Further, it is likely the case that IT cars that actually use 13- and 14-inch wheels make up an increasinly smaller proportion of the grid. There was a time when nearly ALL Improved Touring cars ran on 13" rubber and we thought that the MkI GTI was cool because it had 14s. That day is LONG gone and I'll be that the smallest wheel on all but a few newly classified IT car will be a 15 from here on out...

K
 
While I tend to stay out of rule threads as I race with WCMA rather than SCCA, my opinion is that diameter should be open, and width regulated. There is a limit to where a larger diamter wheel is a benefit for handling, and lightweight 15" wheels are available for much less than lightweight 14x7" wheels
As far as using smaller wheels to lower your gearing, it is an option already to due this via different final drive gears. The only reason, really, to do it with wheels instead is because it's cheaper, and isn't IT supposed to be affordable racing?
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">We probably do influence supply and, if demand for 13" and 14" rubber decreases (or continues to decrease), it becomes relatively less attractive to tool up and make them.K[/B]</font>
Click to expand...

If the rules were revised and the majority of IT cars were running on 15" wheels and tires, it is absolutely concievable that the price for 15" tires would drop or at least level out for a number of years. In the scale of econimies, the tire manufactures could produce larger runs of fewer tires, generating equal or greater profit with lower selling price.

Just another thought.

Rick
 
Just a question...I have not looked...I am actually working at work today (something wrong with that)

Are 15x6 easy to find next to 13x6 or 14x6?...in general.
 
Originally posted by cherokee:
Are 15x6 easy to find next to 13x6 or 14x6?...in general.
Click to expand...

Just a very crude, quick, general search of both The Tirerack and Discount Tire actually shows that, for some of the popular bolt patterns, 14x6 or 15x6.5 seem to be the most plentiful of these two diameters, though many of the 14x6 listed (for example for the 1996 Honda EX) are shown as "closeouts"...

I also looked at Revolution and they seem to have them:

http://www.ttrsracing.com/revolution_race.htm

Perhaps others can search for their applications as well with various manufactures and report back here with their findings.

Probably best to find out now if they would be available before making any kind of rule decision, eh???
wink.gif




[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited January 19, 2004).]
 
I was thinking along the same lines as Cherokee. In my searches of 15" wheels, I have not come across many 6" wide. The smallest is typically 6.5".

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
 
In regards to making the gear ratio cheaper - yes it would, but for everyone other than the people that have 13" wheels already. And again, I'm not saying I am against it but it is a fact.

13" rims are available. Actually I'm in the search right now. Until recently, I wasn't able to get steel 13" rims with the proper backspace for my FWD car. But that recently changed and I can now.

The idea of being able to go up but now down in wheel size makes sense.
 
Andy,

If you're talking about the 'rules creep' question. No, I don't see rules 'evolution' and 'creep' as the same thing. Evolution deals w/ addressing the changing nature of the category. Creep moves that category away from its philosophy, purpose, and intent. In some cases, rules evolution is required, as a result of rules creep. In others, it's driven out of a technology change, and in still others, it's driven out of parts availability.

I see the PCA (bleh!) proposal as an example of the first. I see the ECU rule as an example of the second. And I see opening up of wheels diameters, as an example of the third.

Allowing people to use larger diameter wheels, due to a shortage of smaller diameter wheels, is evolution. Allowing people to use larger diameter wheels becuase of a perceived future shortage, is creep.

Kirk, I respectfully disagree that there will be a shortage of 15" wheels in 5 years time anywhere close to what we have today w/ 13's and 14's. I doubt that there will be any kind of shortage of 15" wheels.

And, that's a good point about 15x6's. So, give everyone 15x7s. That way if a car is moved up or down a class, they won't have to get new wheels.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
Look at it this way: If we went with Bill's more restrictive option, we'll be having this conversation again in 5 years, easy.

The only question in my mind is unforeseen circumstances brought on by larger wheels. I can't see any but that's what makes them unforeseen. Any thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

That's exactly as I see it Kirk. Furthermore, I truly don't see larger wheels as any sort of performance advantage. I think much of this is just folk lore that keeps being repeated and taken for gospel. Interestingly, there seem to be as many people who perceive smaller wheels to be an advantage as those who think larger wheels are an advantage.

My personal feeling is just open up the diameters, but the realist in me says that Darin's proposal has the best chance of going forward.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Darin,

So where do we go from here? Your proposal seems to be a good comprimise. Judgining by your poll-thread there is overwhelming support for your wording. How do we get this on the agenda?
 
Originally posted by Jake:
How do we get this on the agenda?
Click to expand...

It's already being presented for further consideration...

Stay tuned...

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited January 19, 2004).]
 
Duh. I hadn't considered the issue of finding 15x6 wheels. The 15x7 has become the default setting of 2004 like the 13x6 was 20 years ago. Damn - has it been that long?

K
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
Duh. I hadn't considered the issue of finding 15x6 wheels.
Click to expand...

I did some research on the Tire Rack and at Discount Tire... Using various ITB cars as examples, it's a mixed bag of availability. Some have 15x6 available and some don't. The selection of 15x6.5", however, is VAST... almost as good as 15x7"...

Not sure what to think of this at this point....



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
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