We must decide where to draw the line. Any 13" wheel is pretty hard to find compared to other sizes. So only allow the B&C 13" guys to go to 14x6. The other poor guy that was looking for 14x7's would be told tough luck you can run 6's as the 7" is your max size and "there are lots of 14x6 OE alloys out there
more thoughts on wheels
- Thread starter Bill Miller
- Start date
We must decide where to draw the line. Any 13" wheel is pretty hard to find compared to other sizes. So only allow the B&C 13" guys to go to 14x6. The other poor guy that was looking for 14x7's would be told tough luck you can run 6's as the 7" is your max size and "there are lots of 14x6 OE alloys out there
I might not be following but simply telling someone in a class where cars are allowed to run 7" wheels (ITA or ITS) that, due to availability limitations - he/she has to step back an inch in width seems unreasonable - given that it's pretty commonly held that the extra width IS an advantage.
Remember that it's within-class equity that probably matters most - defined as not putting someone at a relative disadvantage due to the changing aftermarket OR a rule adjustment. What happens in A relative to B and C is far less important.
K
Remember that it's within-class equity that probably matters most - defined as not putting someone at a relative disadvantage due to the changing aftermarket OR a rule adjustment. What happens in A relative to B and C is far less important.
K
IMHO we can. IMHO there will be no demonstratable increase in performance.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
In the thread I opened, people seem to oppose opening up wheel diameter by a 2:1 margin.
I think the rule as written by Darin’s thread is spot on:
This allows ITS/A to at least run plentiful 15x7 wheels.
This gives the cars with 16"+ wheels the same percieved benefit as the 13/14" cars.
This is a balanced proposal that fixes the current problem and seems the most fair to everyone.
I think the rule as written by Darin’s thread is spot on:
This allows ITB/C to at least run plentiful 14x6 wheels.
This allows ITS/A to at least run plentiful 15x7 wheels.
This gives the cars with 16"+ wheels the same percieved benefit as the 13/14" cars.
This is a balanced proposal that fixes the current problem and seems the most fair to everyone.
Bill Miller
New member
Like I said before, I hadn't even considered the limited availability of 15x6 wheels. And, allowing the 13" guys in ITC/B to run 14x6 is nothing more than a short-term band-aid.
I would like the guys that justify allowing 16/17/18 inch wheels because that's where we'll eventually be, to explain why would should stop at 15x6 or 15x6.5 for the ITB/C guys. I think Darin alluded to us needed to do this again in a few years if we did that.
If we're going to do this, and hopefully only have to do it once, it would seem to be the best long-term decision to allow at least 15x7 for everyone. Will it really be that much of an advantage? There are guys stuff 225/50/13's on 6" wheels now. How much more tire are they going to be able to get under the car? And, when I ran my ITA MR2, I ran 205/55/14 on my 14x7 Panasports. Same size as I ran on my 14x6 Snowflakes on my ITB GTI.
For those that say there will be a performance advantage to running a wider rim, I'd be interested in tire wear data for ITA and ITB cars. Are the A guys w/ 7" wheels getting that much more out of their tires than the B (or C) guys w/ 6" wheels? A lot of the A cars can't get any more tire under the car than the B or C guys can. Does an ITA Golf 16v w/ 14x7" wheels get that much better tire wear than an ITB Golf 8v w/ 14x6" wheels?
The letter I'm going to send in will request that all cars be allowed to run 15x7 wheels.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
I would like the guys that justify allowing 16/17/18 inch wheels because that's where we'll eventually be, to explain why would should stop at 15x6 or 15x6.5 for the ITB/C guys. I think Darin alluded to us needed to do this again in a few years if we did that.
If we're going to do this, and hopefully only have to do it once, it would seem to be the best long-term decision to allow at least 15x7 for everyone. Will it really be that much of an advantage? There are guys stuff 225/50/13's on 6" wheels now. How much more tire are they going to be able to get under the car? And, when I ran my ITA MR2, I ran 205/55/14 on my 14x7 Panasports. Same size as I ran on my 14x6 Snowflakes on my ITB GTI.
For those that say there will be a performance advantage to running a wider rim, I'd be interested in tire wear data for ITA and ITB cars. Are the A guys w/ 7" wheels getting that much more out of their tires than the B (or C) guys w/ 6" wheels? A lot of the A cars can't get any more tire under the car than the B or C guys can. Does an ITA Golf 16v w/ 14x7" wheels get that much better tire wear than an ITB Golf 8v w/ 14x6" wheels?
The letter I'm going to send in will request that all cars be allowed to run 15x7 wheels.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
So how would you write the rule?
"All cars with 15" rims and below may run any size width and diamter rim UP TO 7" wide and/or 15" in diameter. Those cars allowed or specified to run 16" or larger must do so."
Horrible? Someone tweek or re-write.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
"All cars with 15" rims and below may run any size width and diamter rim UP TO 7" wide and/or 15" in diameter. Those cars allowed or specified to run 16" or larger must do so."
Horrible? Someone tweek or re-write.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
I'd take Darin's wording verbatim.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
My bud Dave (granracing on this board) runs a 215/50VR13 on a 13x6 rim. The edges of the tire don't even wear because the tire doesn't fit square. He's probably only using 80% of the tire. The same tire sits perfectly square on a 13x7 wheel. That translates to longer wear and more performance. Extra wheel width is certainly an advantage.
Everyone seems so worried about ITB/C, but I don't see them asking for wider wheels. If I ran in B/C I would never want a width increase to 7" because it would cause me to spend money. Let's stick to fixing the problem we have and not create problems where there isn't one.
Everyone seems so worried about ITB/C, but I don't see them asking for wider wheels. If I ran in B/C I would never want a width increase to 7" because it would cause me to spend money. Let's stick to fixing the problem we have and not create problems where there isn't one.
These two parts are very key to this...If you limit someone to 6" rims we will be doing this again in a few years.
My car is like Bill's one size tire on 6" and 7" wheels. How is telling a guy that he has to down an inch in the rim size is going to make him run a smaller tire? Remember the rules as written now say Max width, there is no guarantee that you get to run the max. The fenders are the limiting factor in my case...and I think in most cases it would be. 7" may be so wide that it will not make any difference...can't get that much tire under the car anyway so I will run 6.5's.
Jake...But if he could not find (cheap, and this is what this is realy all about) wheels he would be asking for wider wheels....after the supplies of 14x6's dry up...and they will, just like the 13's did before them.
Just give the extra "inch" and be done with it for good. You can build your car to the max of the rules or you can not and anywhere in between...It would not be the first time that the rules changed that cost people money....at least we are not talking about taking anything away.
Just give the extra "inch" and be done with it for good. You can build your car to the max of the rules or you can not and anywhere in between...It would not be the first time that the rules changed that cost people money....at least we are not talking about taking anything away.
I hate to say it, but if 14x6 wheels dry up - let's deal with that then. Honestly, I just don't see it. 14x6 is a very popular size in both the aftermarket and the OEMs. Even if they are stopped being produced in 5yrs, they are going to be very plentiful on places like Ebay and in Junk yards. Look at all the BMW's, VW's, Honda's, Mazda's, and Toyota's that came with 14x6 stock. 13x7 and 14x7 were never stock wheel sizes for FWD cars and that's why they aren't available anywhere.
I just don't buy a plan that creates a problem now trying to anticipate a problem that may or may not happen several years down the road. Honestly, I'll bet that the current cars that run in ITB and C fields will dry up before the 14x6 wheels do.
Now on the other hand, the CB plans to start migrating more cars from ITA to ITB, and propogating the fields (long overdue) a 7" wide across the board rule change might have more of a point.
I just don't buy a plan that creates a problem now trying to anticipate a problem that may or may not happen several years down the road. Honestly, I'll bet that the current cars that run in ITB and C fields will dry up before the 14x6 wheels do.
Now on the other hand, the CB plans to start migrating more cars from ITA to ITB, and propogating the fields (long overdue) a 7" wide across the board rule change might have more of a point.
Bill Miller
New member
C'mon Andy, you can't expect something so simple and straight-forward to go through!!
Looks good to me!!
And just why is that Jake?
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
Banzai240
New member
Not to scare you all and actually agree with Bill here (
Given the choice of staying in ITA and being an underdog with your 7" wheels, or being moved to ITB where you could compete, the only caveat being that you had to put 6" wide wheels on the car... which would you choose?
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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
Bill Miller
New member
Yeah Jake, that's just great. Move cars from ITA to ITB, don't add any weight to them, and let them run wider wheels than the vast majority of ITB. Why not ask for a turbo too!
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
APologize for sounding flippant...but here's my 2 cents.
Why not just leave it alone? If the car you are "attached" to has 14's, that is the way it goes.
Just as if the car I am "attached" to has a live axle, carb, drum rear brakes, crappy 4 speed or the front sway bar also locates my lca.
Availability of wheels should not be an issue as you always have the option of running OEM wheels.
If you feel that you can't compete on OEM 14's or you don't wish to spend the money to get custom wheels made then build a different car.
Allowing cars to upgrade to 15's is a competition adjustment as some cars in that class won't get the upgrade.
Why not just leave it alone? If the car you are "attached" to has 14's, that is the way it goes.
Just as if the car I am "attached" to has a live axle, carb, drum rear brakes, crappy 4 speed or the front sway bar also locates my lca.
Availability of wheels should not be an issue as you always have the option of running OEM wheels.
If you feel that you can't compete on OEM 14's or you don't wish to spend the money to get custom wheels made then build a different car.
Allowing cars to upgrade to 15's is a competition adjustment as some cars in that class won't get the upgrade.