more thoughts on wheels

[Knestis]

I don't think that's really an agenda here, Rick - ANY car in A or S is already allowed 7" wheels and NONE of those in B or C are. The ONLY way that this becomes an issue is if a car is moved from A to B - like the MkIII Golf. I didn't for one instant assume that I could run 7" wheels on that car in B just because it had them in A and, to the extent that this question has to be addressed, it can be done on a case-by-case basis during deliberation about whether or not to reclassify a car.

The question of widths is not really at issue here and for my role in sending the topic that direction, I apologize. We got there by worrying about the availablity of 15x6 wheels, thinking about allowing B and C cars listed with 13" and 14" wheels to step up - which really wasn't an issue either: There are no B or C cars currently allowed to run 7" wheels - 14" diameter and rare, or otherwise - so the ORIGINAL question at hand fundamentally doesn't apply to those classes...

...therefore, one option would be an amendment to Darin's original wording limiting the proposed change to ITA and ITS cars. Take a bite-size piece of the issue and worry about 13x6 and 14x6 availability issues if and when they arise.

The alternative is to go with the proposal as originally written and accept that the 15x6 is never going to be common so won't truly be a viable option. Frankly, I don't think it matters at this point, regardless of the concern that I voiced earlier.

K

 

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Jake:
You're sort of missing the point. This is an affordablility issue. 14x7 wheels are available, they just cost an arm and a leg...When you imply that if you can't afford to have custom made 14x7 wheels manufactured for your car, build a new car, is so flawed it is ironic. This is probably why there is such overwhelming support for Darin's proposal.

Jake,

The fact is that no one is forcing you to go buy 14 x 7 wheels. They are not required. Similar parts for different cars vary a great deal in cost. I shouldn't go build a BMW for ITS and then complain that the parts for it are too expensive and want the rules changed so that I can afford to develop the car.

I am not in support of Darin's proposal. In fact, I am against any change in the current rule.

From my side of the fence, as long as good DOT-R tires are available in 14's, then a change to the rule isn't called for.

-Daryl DeArman

 

[Bill Miller]

The larger part of ITC and ITB will NOT be effected by the lack of 15x6" wheels, as most would NOT elect to use these, having 14x6" readily available. The real impact will be in ITA and ITS, where the change is really needed.

Therefore, I really don't think that altering the current widths is something that needs to be done. I think it would negatively impact ITB and ITC, and wouldn't effect ITA and ITS at all, the later of which is where the change is really needed.

Bottom line... I'd go with exactly what I proposed and that would be sufficient for many years to come.

C'mon Darin, how the hell do you know if the ITB/C folks would 'elect' to use 15" wheels or not? You argued the 'plus size' allowance to get the 16/17/18 inch wheels in for the ITA/ITS guys. I could just as easily (and w/ equal authority) say that the ITA/S guys would NOT elect to run these, having 15x7 available.

You want to be proactive for ITA/S, but not for ITB/C. Looks to me like you're trying to feather your own nest on this one, and the others can pound sand. If you don't think new 14x6 wheels won't be as scare in 3-5 years as 13x6 wheels are today, IMHO, you're sadly mistaken.

As of now, the new Hoosier isn't available in 13", and the smallest 14" size is 225/50/14. Hoosier lists the rim range as 8"-9", w/ their measurements made on a 7" wheel. Kumho doesn't offer its new tire in 13" or 14". Their press release says they plan to release more sizes this year, but down't say what they are. For all we know, they won't offer 13" or 14".

So, if you don't give the ITB folks the 15" wheels, the vast majority won't be able to run on the latest tire offerings from 2 of the big 3 IT tire vendors. However there is one particular car that will be able to run them. Care to take a guess what car that is? It's only been one of the most dominant ITB cars over the last several years, and has won the last 4 ARRCs, IIRC! So, you give what's already deemed by some as a class overdog, the ability to run stickier tires than a large portion of the rest of the class. Yeah, that'll keep 'em happy!

I really don't understand how you can spout the 'proactive' line for the 16/17/18 inch tiress one minute, then pull back when it comes to doing something proactive for ITB/C. Loses some of its altruistic luster, doesn't it?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

 

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
From my side of the fence, as long as good DOT-R tires are available in 14's, then a change to the rule isn't called for.

-Daryl DeArman

Have you checked into this lately??? Hoosier is reducing their offerings in both 13" and 14" as we speak, or so I've been told...

 

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Looks to me like you're trying to feather your own nest on this one, and the others can pound sand.

Give me more credit than that, Bill... I already get to run 16" wheels... and I have 3 sets of them... I've nothing to gain by any of this and couldn't afford to take advantage if I did...

I am NOT in disagreement that it would make a lot of sense to allow a 7" wheel across the board, but I'm also realistic on what I think can actually be accomplished. When you start proposing things are are guaranteed to cost people money, the fight gets a little tougher.

I would support a rule that allowed widths of 7" across the board, but it would be a lonely fight.

The wider wheels do go with the industry standard. The question is, should the class? Many of those who would support larger diameters are against wider widths, so what is one suppose to do? It all depends on how reasonble you want to be.

So... How reasonable do you all want to be?



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

 

[Bill Miller]

Darin,

They seemed to have no problem w/ the ECU rule, and that was definately going to cost people money.

And, I'm the kind of person that will fight for something if I believe in it. I won't settle just because its 'easier'.

And, even if you allow 15x6 in ITB/C, it's going to cost people money. What do you think the ITB crowd would rather do, spend the money, or watch the Volvo get even farther down the track because it can run the latest tires?

You want to do things that will help the long-term viability of the category, and help entice new people to IT, how could you not support a proposal to allow 15x7's across the board?

BTW, it's only going to make the people spend the money if they want to. How many people have said "Hey, if the car you have isn't competitive, either it's not developed, or you picked the wrong car." Talk about making people spend money! A 205/50/15 R3S03 is only $12/tire more than a 205/55/14. A 205/50/15 Kumho Ecsta V700 is actually $1/tire cheaper than a 225/50/14, and only $3/tire more than a 195/55/14 (there is no more 205/55/14). The 205/50/15 VictoRacer is $8/tire more than the 205/55/14. You're talking at most, $150/season (assuming 3 sets of Hoosiers). That's not even the cost of 1 tire! For the Kumhos, it's barely the cost to mount 2 tires!

And, as the others have argued, no one would make you run them.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

 

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
The alternative is to go with the proposal as originally written and accept that the 15x6 is never going to be common so won't truly be a viable option. Frankly, I don't think it matters at this point, regardless of the concern that I voiced earlier.

I did some soul searching in this regard myself and I concur Kirk. I don't think it matters.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

 

[Guest]

There is one point that might make a difference in this argument....
I've done a little searching and after looking at the options available for one car in particular, whether or not the diameter is 14, 15 or 16 the number of available wheels seems to be about the same.
Tires on the other hand, as we all know, have a much larger selection in the larger sizes.

For instance, many of the "old guard" IT cars, which have and will probably be around for at least a while longer, cannot utilize many of todays wheels, even if they are available in the correct lug pattern, simply becuase of the offsets available.
Case in point is the early Datsun Z cars, which, due to their 4x114.3 lug pattern are difficult enough to find, yet, there are many later model cars that have this same lug pattern, but, due to their positive offset, would make them unuseable.

Yes, there are custom made wheels that are on the market, but, if the rules are changed, will this be a fair rule if owner of older cars have to resort to heavier steel wheels if no others (aluminum or alloy) are available, while owners of newer cars can use the latest and lightest alloy wheels?

Just another piece of the puzzle to throw into the "stew" pot....or do we have to change the rules first, then ask for more PCA's in the future, if there are any at all.

 

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I won't settle just because its 'easier'.

Yah, Bill... I'm sure that everyone here would also think that I've opted for the "easy" way out on most of these things...

Ask anybody on the ITAC just how "easy" I roll over on these discussions...

Give me a break...


Back to the point... Allowing wider wheels in ITB and ITC instantly has a performance impact on the class that is real and predictable. Allowing larger diameter wheels has a performance impact on the class that is almost purely hypothetical and may or may not reveal itself in practice. This HAS to be considered in any conversation about this topic. You can't simply take one aspect of it, like you've done with cost in previous post with cost, and say that because that line of thinking reasons out, the whole thing makes sense. And you can't base a decision on a bunch of hypotheticals.

The aim is to do whatever makes the most sense. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. You'll just have to live with that.

Now, I'd like to address the issue with TIRE availability... Is there any truth to the speculation that 13" and 14" DOT race tires are becoming less available???


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

 

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Have you checked into this lately??? Hoosier is reducing their offerings in both 13" and 14" as we speak, or so I've been told...

Darin,

I hadn't, but now I have. The tire rack has 5 (14") sizes of the R3S03 and 3 of the V700 Victoracer to choose from, in stock ready to ship. I didn't check on the availability of Toyo options from other sources. But more than one option is currently available.

As to future plans, I don't know what each manufacturer has in mind. Currently, I don't see a problem.

 

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by 2Many Z's:
Yes, there are custom made wheels that are on the market, but, if the rules are changed, will this be a fair rule if owner of older cars have to resort to heavier steel wheels if no others (aluminum or alloy) are available, while owners of newer cars can use the latest and lightest alloy wheels?

Would you please clarify? As I understand your post, the wheels are available so you can use the latest and lightest alloy wheels, if you choo$e to do so.

 

[Jake]

I wish I ran a Z-car. The Konig Rewind is available in 14x7 with a RWD offset and a 4x114.3 bolt circle. They weigh about 13lbs a piece and cost less than $100/each. I routinely see 14x7 wheels for the old-guard RWD cars for sale on ebay and other sites from Panasport, Watanabe, and Volk racing.

 

[cherokee]

"I would support a rule that allowed widths of 7" across the board, but it would be a lonely fight."

Why? Present your case change some peoples minds...that is what this is all about. If you think (and I mean think not feel) that 7" is right then support it lobby for it make your case. 99.9% of us put our ideas out there for debate so we can make the idea better...or to say I never thought of it that way...I will change my mind on this. I don't want to think that anyone would want to put out a rule that would be bad for the class. After looking at the other classes GT,Prod,SS... I think that this is the best place to race...that does not mean that I don't think things could be better.

 

[cherokee]

As for tires...13's are kinda hard to find. Not many choices. Move me up to a 14" and they are more available...but to tell you the truth I will keep my 13's as long as I can. I dont think we should put someting in place that would put someone in the same boat as Jake(I think,that was pages ago) is in now. Brake a wheel and not be able to find 13x6's or 14x6's that will fit. (14x6's will be around for me for a very long time I have a real common size)

 

[Jake]

Tire availablility is not a problem in 13" and 14" sizes. We can thank Solo II and for this - there is much demand for 14's and 13's there. In fact, any serious competitor in Solo II's popular street prepared class is running wide 13" wheels. So even if some IT cars move to larger diameters, it may not effect demand as much as you may think.

All the latest major R-compounds are supporting them, don't be misled just because some are rolling out the smaller sizes this summer after the initial launch. Here's some examples:

Hoosier R3S04:
185/60ZR13 (March 04)
205/60ZR13 (March 04)
225/45ZR13 (Feb 04)
195/55ZR14 (June 04)
205/55ZR14 (Feb 04)
225/50ZR14 (available now)


Kumho V710
This summer they are adding
205/55VR14
225/50VR14
and others (they plan to replace the Ecsta V700 with these and the V700 offers 3 flavors of 13" tires)

Hankook Ventus Z211:
205/60VR13
195/55VR14
205/55VR14
225/50VR14

 

[Bill Miller]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Allowing wider wheels in ITB and ITC instantly has a performance impact on the class that is real and predictable. Allowing larger diameter wheels has a performance impact on the class that is almost purely hypothetical and may or may not reveal itself in practice.</font>

Ok Darin, you're so sure of yourself. Show me some emperical data that supports your claim of this 'real and predictable' performance inmpact. I asked the question earlier about tire wear/performance issues between two very similar cars, one in ITA and one in ITB (16v and 8v A2 Golfs).

And, I was speaking about myself when I said I didn't settle because it was easier. I said nothing about you. So you can give me a break w/ your melodrama. However, since you said you would support 15x7 wheels across the board, it won't be so lonely afterall, as I'll support it as well. I'll count on your vote in favor when I send the letter in.

Quickshoe,

While there may be several of the older Hoosiers and Kumhos available in 14", look at the new offerings from each comapny. Hoosier has one, and Kumho has none. And the Hoosier is really too wide for a 6" rim.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

 

[Bill Miller]

Jake,

Where's the data from? I didn't see anything about any of the new sizes of either Hoosier or Kumho on the TireRack site.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

 

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Ok Darin, you're so sure of yourself. Show me some emperical data that supports your claim of this 'real and predictable' performance inmpact.

Bill,
I don't know much about FWD cars, and I think you know that I don't have a pile of "emperical data" sitting around on this particular topic...

HOWEVER, I have been around a bit and can answer your question by stating one...:

If tire supply and sizes was not in question, and you had the option of using up to a 7" wide wheel, would you choose a 6" wide wheel? If there is NOT a performance difference, and all these 240Zs could run the more plentiful 14x6" wheels instead... why don't they?

I know of VERY few drivers who would say YES to that one...

Otherwise, it doesn't take much analysis to see that a tire will have a wider and flatter contact patch on a wider rim, etc., etc....

Also, we are discussing all the options here, and I don't believe I've said anywhere so far of what I would or wouldn't do in this situation, given the options. I'm trying to be realistic about the entire situation and this discussion has been good for bringing many issues to the surface that otherwise might have gone overlooked or less-considered.

I would sincerely like to see more data on tire size availability for the near term, because that would certainly be a concern.

I'm still open to the possibility of opening up rim diameters, but at this point, I still am not sure it would be a necessary thing to do. It needs to be discussed further.

That's what this is suppose to be about. There is no sense in picking apart every word I type and trying to find the flaws in my logic. Let me make things easier for you... I'm human, and will admit readily to having MANY flaws in my logic...

Let's keep this constructive and bring some solutions to the surface...


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

 

[Guest]

Well Jake, the Konig Rewinds are no longer in production, and the guy on Ebay that bought a pile of them and was offering them is now out....
Yes, Panasport still has wheels available, and you can probably get them from Keizer if you wanted to spend the big bucks....Diamond Racing will make up some decent steel wheels, which, I've seen quite a few of on Spec-7's already.

I guess the point is this, if you are on a budget, and are buying used wheels now to get the proper lug pattern/offset,what are ya gonna do 5 years from now if you choose to keep the car? For some cars it's not all about diameter, it's about the lug patterns and offsets. I'm sure the Z cars aren't the only ones that have lug patterns and offset needs that are in short enough supply now....

I believe the early Supra wheels will also fit(lug pattern and close to 0 offset), but, there is the buying used wheels of unknown condition again.

 

[Jake]

You people really need to learn how to research stuff on the net.

Darin and Bill,

Hoosier availabilty dates come courtesy of Bob Woodman Tires:
http://www.bobwoodmantires.com/hoosier/hsr...sortsradial.htm

Kumho is very responsive when you email their motorsports division.

Z- I'm not talking about the "guy on Ebay" - there are several resellers still selling the Rewinds. The Rewind is actually a Rota design, and Rota is actually looking at expanding the line (according to their rep at SEMA). The used wheel market is filled with lightweight examples - I can find you a few sets cheap if you want.