Philosophical Issue - Do we let newbies screw up?

Originally posted by rlearp:
...I do have one request - can anyone tell me exactly what I have to do to get my license? This doesn't seem easy either and I really like the part about you must have a race car to get one, Catch-22. Jeff Y. and his partner have offered me rental of their spec Miata and I hope to be able to use it to get the job done but I need to know where to go, who to talk too, etc....
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Ron,

LOTS of great information in this thread so far. Since you're in my neck of the woods I would be happy to supply you with some (local) names and suggestions.

e-mail me at [email protected]

FWIW, I saw the Summit school coming up. However, you DO need two. I don't really want to pull all the way down to Florida, so I am planning on attending the double school at Roebling Road in February. I know a couple of guys who have gone there in the past as well as a couple more who instruct. All recommend it highly.

Yeah, it sucks having the car sit in the garage for the next 5 months, but those are the rules we play by.
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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)
 
There's already an informal way to do this and one that should be encouraged more actively by the club and local regions and exploited by competitors. There are few reasons to do an annual tech at the track. Most can and should be done in the comfort and convenience of a competitors or tech inspectors garage of an evening or off weekend.

Originally posted by Geo:
You know, this is really an excellent observation. I think the first couple of hours of a school should include a tech seminar. Regardless of the state of your logbook, you should have to go through a full tech and have the techs explain what is what. I've been through tech more than I should for various reasons and it's still a process that is a bit daunting.

As a club we should take any mystery out of tech for the new club racer. It would also be a chance for the new racer to get to know some of the tech folks. I know the time I've talked with them when I wasn't running a car through was a much easier conversation. I think we as club racers don't fully appreciate the position they are in as well. So, a more friendly atmosphere for more relaxed conversation by doing a tech seminar in each school could do wonders IMHO.
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I too believe SCCA is missing the marketing boat by not offering a HPDE product

*******

Gregg and others,

The Kansas City/Kansas Regions have been conducting HPCCC driver's schools since they were allowed by the SCCA. Since that time we have pulled many club racers out of their street cars and into a racecar. I am included in this number and had the "hook" set at a Solo I in 1997.

HPCCC events are always ran in conjunction with our Double Regional/School Regional events at Heartland Park. Not only do these events give new drivers the "racing bug" they also offset the cost of these events. In addition to the action on the track we usually have a Solo II in the paddock at the same time. This Three Ring circus approach creates unity between the Racer and Solo II crowd and it markets what the SCCA can offer to the newby.

The Cost of Racing.......well that is something any would be driver needs to investigate and understand going in. For my part if was useful to understand that I didn't need to club race a High HP Mustang like the one that I was autocrossing to have a great time. Frankly, I spent more money autocrossing a C Prepared Mustang ($1000.00 tire bills!) than I do racing my IT7 car.

Scott




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Scott Peterson
KC Region
IT7 #17
 
Originally posted by Edwin Robinson:
I think the SCCA should consider getting some traveling instructors on the payroll.
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Edwin with all do respect if you feel that the quality of instructors is poor (and sometimes it is) you should volunteer, assuming you have a national licence.
dick patullo
 
Originally posted by Edwin Robinson:
I think the SCCA should consider getting some traveling instructors on the payroll.
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Originally posted by dickita15:
Edwin with all do respect if you feel that the quality of instructors is poor (and sometimes it is) you should volunteer, assuming you have a national licence.
dick patullo
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Dick,

I believe the reference is to quantity rather than quality. The quality of all the SCCA instruction I have received has been high, but at an SCCA school the instructor is not in the car--at least I've never seen one in a tin top, and I've always been in a single-seat SRF, so I may be wrong. Under this scenario (no ride-along instructor in SCCA) I am absolutely, positively convinced that SCCA is not the place to learn to drive. Sure, one can learn to drive, but not very efficiently; the Club is, however a great place to learn to race.

I've had excellent SCCA instructors (nationally ranked top 10) tell me after a 30 minute session that I am, say, apexing too late in turn five. That's 30 minutes down the drain. On the other hand, if I'm doing a HPDE/Marque thing like the Porsche school, the instructor (your average, every-day Le Mans winner) is next to me giving me instant feedback at every corner. After one lap I know exactly what I should be doing.

Then again, with me behind the wheel one lap will take about 30 minutes, so I guess it all washes out in the end.
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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

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[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited August 31, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by racer_tim:
@ Thunderhill, we have what are called "street schools" that are instructed by regular SCCA drivers. Classroom instruction, as well as on-track sessions (with instructor) allow anybody with a vehicle to get some advanced instruction. First step in "planting the hook"
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That's a great idea.

An even more casual situation set my "hook." I tagged along with a friend to a PCA school. It was interesting, but as an observer it was bordering on boring. Then, during a break, his instructor asked me, "Want a ride?"

I figured, why not? What's this grey-haired old geezer with his '79 911 going to do? Scare me?

Yep. Absopositivelylutely.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
I believe Kirk's orginal question is getting lost. It's not how do we make the driving instruction better, or plant the hook, but once someone has moved into the "I want to race" mindset - giving them the tools to make good decisions that will allow them to continue.

The unspoken truth is:
1. most new racers know enough to know that someone knows more than they do.
2. many know enough to find forums like this and/or network to get a leg up on finding out the hard stuff.
3. at a certain point people will stop helping you.

Separate the truly uninformed questions like what should I race from the ones where someone is looking for setup information. The ones in the former category (what should I race, what should I take to driver school, other 'mine field' questions) are the ones where tools for making decisions should be offered to new folks.

Sports car and magazines like Grassroots have at times offered low buck race car articles, but those don't usually help people understand why an particular car in ITA may not be the way to go. That kind of stuff is obviously what is going into the discussions on the site about PCA's - It's the kind of thing that may be good as a racing primer for new enthusiats. That said, it's all right here on Jake's list and if you build/buy a car without reading it and the GCR - it's your own fault.

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1989 ITA 240sx - #21 MARRS Series
Currently with a large hole where the #2 rod left the block.

I fixed the hole....
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[This message has been edited by timelapseracing (edited August 31, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by dickita15:
Originally posted by Edwin Robinson:
I think the SCCA should consider getting some traveling instructors on the payroll.  
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Edwin with all do respect if you feel that the quality of instructors is poor (and sometimes it is) you should volunteer, assuming you have a national licence.
dick patullo
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I do. (on both accounts)
Sometimes time does not permit.

You may have inferred that I said the instruction was poor- I did not say that. While I'm sure most all instructors do, 'the best they can' - the program is, in my opinion, lacking in terms of:
1) The qualifications necessary for being an instructor.
2) A defined 'set-of-bases' the instructor should cover with the student.
3) A quantitative/qualitative approach to rating the student.

I sure Skip Barber, Jim Russell, et al.. have a policy and program in place for the above issues. I think SCCA students would benefit from something similar. Lastly, I think the instructors (whomever they are) should also be compensated in some form for their time. This would give a real incentive for those instructors to be involved- moreso than just a 'pat on the back'.

And no- I'm not volunteering to spearhead that operation. ;^)
 
Originally posted by racer_tim:
@ Thunderhill, we have what are called "street schools" that are instructed by regular SCCA drivers. Classroom instruction, as well as on-track sessions (with instructor) allow anybody with a vehicle to get some advanced instruction. First step in "planting the hook"

http://www.thunderhill.com/school.html
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Yep, I am a former victim, err uhh, graduate. I also try and give back to the program, as an instructor.

It was a big help that I connected with a longtime club racer who guided me when I had questions. It was also a big help that I found this site. In club racing there are people who are willing to help and there are people who want to help a newbie.
 
One of the biggest problems we had was getting seat time in our track cars before having a competition license. Except for one group, Turn One Motorsports at Kershaw, everyone else we talked to was adamant that we would have to use our street cars until we had comp licenses. Even though we'd installed instructor seats and harnesses every bit as good as our driver kit. We ran one DE in our street cars before being sure we wanted to do this. We weren't about to put cars we owed that much money on back on the track, especially in uncontrolled passing situations, until we had a lot more seat time. So we went to Kershaw repeatedly, in our track cars, and we'll keep going back. Those are some really helpful folks down there. If you go, tell Joe Hooker that The Nuts say 'Hi'.

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Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing
 
Originally posted by rjohnson999:
There's already an informal way to do this and one that should be encouraged more actively by the club and local regions and exploited by competitors. There are few reasons to do an annual tech at the track. Most can and should be done in the comfort and convenience of a competitors or tech inspectors garage of an evening or off weekend.
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I agree and that is how I'm going to have my car tech'd. For one thing, I don't want my tech to feel under pressure. When under pressure the safe thing to do with something you question is to say no.

However, most newbies don't know or appreciate this. It should be part of the introduction to tech. Also, as I said, regardless of the status of the log book, ALL cars should have to go through just so everyone can get an idea of what to expect and what the process is IMHO.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by Edwin Robinson:

- the program is, in my opinion, lacking in terms of:
1) The qualifications necessary for being an instructor.
2) A defined 'set-of-bases' the instructor should cover with the student.
3) A quantitative/qualitative approach to rating the student.
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I have volunteered to instruct for a number of regions, and I would say that your comments may hold water in some instances, but not others. I am sure SCCA does have recommendations to the Region, but each Region is probably free, to some degree, to run and instruct as they see fit, due to local conditions...such as...

Manpower- The pool of instructors is mostly...us. How many of us have spare time? I thought so, acting as an instructor means sacrifices elsewhere.
and ....
Tracktime- The Club has minimum standards for actual on track time the student serves, and at some tracks it is very tight to meet the requirements.

I do agree that there is a real need to create a curriculum that is standardized and that all instructors are schooled in before their sessions with students. It needn't be at the track, or require an early arrival either; web based sites can provide an source for instuctors to consult.

One common theme that came up at grading time was "Do you want to race with this student?" That is an excellent soul searcher. As racers we know what it takes to get there...but we also know what we want, (and don't want) on the track. A decision that is never taken lightly, and thankfully I have seen students that just weren't ready be told to try again. Others were borderline and passed.

I do think that the SCCA made a decision, (or perhaps just morphed the organization into this position) a long time ago to do what it does best, and that is sanction races. Lately I have seen kinks in the armor though, in the form of incidents involving rookies, making "rookie" mistakes. Expensive ones for other competitors as well.

The easy solution to this is more track time...but the real world doesn't support that...track time is tough to come by, and expensive..not just financially but from a Regions resources standpoint (workers!).
So the solution needs to be twofold- One, students need to be intensely educated in their school experience. I think that the rulebook needs better implementation, and we should go so far as having a written test on racing protocols such as passing, spinning, and driving theory as well as the SCCA procedural stuff. I know the GCR used to be tested...but I haven't seen that in awhile..it too needs to return.
Second...the granting of a license needs to be tightened up. The lack of available schools means the instructor may have a borderline students "best " interests in mind and try to save him a long summer of no racing by passing him, but thats the wrong move and the system needs to have a series of checks and balances to avoid that.

When a student "graduates" he should know, without a doubt, where the tech sticker goes, that you don't release the brakes as you are spinning on the banking, and that tech is not in charge od legal scrutineering, among a million others.

Is it too much for resources available?


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Originally posted by lateapex911:
...The easy solution to this is more track time...but the real world doesn't support that...track time is tough to come by, and expensive..not just financially but from a Regions resources standpoint (workers!)...

...When a student "graduates" he should know, without a doubt, where the tech sticker goes, that you don't release the brakes as you are spinning on the banking, and that tech is not in charge od legal scrutineering, among a million others.
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Jake,

As someone who is a few months away from his first school, I hope these questions/comments are taken in the right "light".

Additional track time sounds like a no-brainer. However, besides the issues you mentioned does running around on a track with a lot of other "newbies" teach you what you really need to know? It seems to me that whenever you finally get on-track with experienced racers, it's going to be different. I'm not trying to minimize the need for seat time. Just wondering if there is a point of diminishing returns....

To continue along the same line of thought, all the "classroom theory" is great. I really want to know what I'm supposed to do in different circumstances I will probably end up in. But ultimately, am I REALLY going to execute when the time comes? I hope so. But the best way to learn what to do when you spin is... well, to spin.

I'll let you (everyone) know what I think after I get through school. And I'm not saying more instruction wouldn't be better. I just don't (theoretically) believe that it's THE answer. It's just better. Where ever I spin for the first time, be it at SCCA school, at a school like Panoz or in a real race, THAT will be where I really learn the most.

Again, these are expectations. I have no real-world experience yet. Am I close??????

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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)
 
Originally posted by Mike Spencer:

Additional track time sounds like a no-brainer. However, besides the issues you mentioned does running around on a track with a lot of other "newbies" teach you what you really need to know? It seems to me that whenever you finally get on-track with experienced racers, it's going to be different. I'm not trying to minimize the need for seat time. Just wondering if there is a point of diminishing returns....
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Mike,
I think you'll find that at a school, just like in a regional race, there will be people with varying degrees of skill - some rank beginners, some taking their second or third school, some renewing their licenses, and some with just natural talent. (Notwithstanding school racers are normally slower than licensed racers.) The point is part of the "education" is learning to deal with others' mistakes (and their strong points) and dealing with your own. So seat time with other cars on the track at speed in a mix of levels of skill is most assuredly teaching you "what you need to know." It's all part of the learning process. Participation breeds confidence and ability. I'm sure you will take a great deal from the experience.
GRJ
 
there are some interesting points brought out by this thread direction.

we use on track instructors in there own race cars to put students is some of the situations that would be otherwise be lacking driving around with other students. If i have a student who is driving ok but avoiding traffic i send an on track guy to test him.

there is much to teach about racing so as stated less time is spent on know how to drive the line. i am not saying that driving the line is not important and help is given, but as others have said there are good many good places to work on that.

the best way to improve programs is at a local level. more good work is done by regions than national. this is true of everything we think should be done better, publicity, recruiting, training ect..

that being said there is a commitee that was formed last winter on a national level to stadardize the scca school experience. I spoke to some members back in the spring when we were running our schools but have not heard any updayes on their work lately.

dick patullo
ner scca
 
Originally posted by lateapex911:
Second...the granting of a license needs to be tightened up. The lack of available schools means the instructor may have a borderline students "best " interests in mind and try to save him a long summer of no racing by passing him, but thats the wrong move and the system needs to have a series of checks and balances to avoid that.
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While I agree standards should not be loosened, I feel very strongly that the SCCA needs to offer more schools. Perhaps it could be structured a bit differently to accomodate this? I don't know.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
How? From an event organization stand point, there is no time. From the point of view of the economics of running events, there is no opportunity. These two things interact to create the programs we have today because the SCCA hasn't been the only game in town for tracks for a long time.

Once upon a time it was possible to require that any region and track holding a national had to hold a driver's school. It was necessary to get a driver's school entry in as early as possible or you ran the risk of not making the cut off. Now we're lucky if we break even on schools, regions are grouping together to reduce economic risk and most drivers expect to get waived on their second school. If every region holding a national had to host a driver's school, they would loose large sums of money.

The NASA/MC/EMRA/marque club model would require wholesale restructuring of the entire class set up and regional and national programs. In order to serve new members we would be short changing those already invested in the programs.

Getting additional track dates runs into the problem of both cost and finding enough workers to staff even more events. That once-upon-a-time era also had fewer professional races to staff at the same tracks, no vintage racing and marque clubs were considered beneath contempt. Today, vintange and marque club events pay higher track rental fees than many SCCA regions at the same track in part because the regions have made deals with the tracks to staff these events in return for reduced rentals or other perks.

The underlying economics of renting race tracks to conduct events has changed radically over the past three decades. Unless and until that is addressed there will not be an opportunity to change SCCA programs. The only alternative would be to sacrifice existing programs to pursue the "promise" of a mythical marketing defined future.

Originally posted by Geo:
While I agree standards should not be loosened, I feel very strongly that the SCCA needs to offer more schools. Perhaps it could be structured a bit differently to accomodate this? I don't know.
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I think that the SCCA is just where it needs to be as far as schools. The drivers schools are enough to get you started without pulling too much from your wallet. I've been thru independent professional (ie expensive) schooling and SCCA schools. Jones hit the nail on the head. At your first race, there will be all kinds of drivers. Good, bad and ugly. With different experience levels, aptitude and attitude. Treat each race as a learning experience, don't over estimate your abilities and just get track time. If you want more schools, get more schools, whatever your comfort level is.

But just remember that, you are going to wreck eventually, its just a matter of time.

And if you can't afford to replace it, you can't afford to race it.

And you shouldn't try to win at turn one of the first lap.

Tom
 
As Kirk points out, the noobies have a lot of questions, and they are frequently the same.
And as Andy B points out, there is info out there, if you know where to look.

So I offer the following suggestions:

1)Have a FAQ section on Improvedtouring.com. Maybe even save some threads like this one there.

2) Have some links on the main page to worthwhile information. Like Andy's links.

3) Compile a list of people willing to act as mentors.

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series
 
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