Philosophical Issue - Do we let newbies screw up?

I don't have time right now to read what this thread is really about, but I wanted to make a comment only related to the title of this thread...

How can any newbie screw up when EVERYONE running in IT is giving the advice that we are racing for FUN. Race something you have an interest in and will be fun for you. Winning or running up front is a bonus (I am happy to have) not the goal. having fun with new or old friends is the goal.

Raymond "busy" Blethen
RST Performance Racing
 
Originally posted by rjohnson999:
How?....
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As I said, I don't have the answer. At least I'm willing to address the question. I've talked with a number of people who have trouble finding schools. In my region, if you miss the double school, you miss the season. Is that making the SCCA more user friendly? As I said, perhaps the way things are structured needs to be changed?


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Structured by whom? Individual regions have much more latitude in how they structure their programs than Topeka does. There are already huge differences from region to region and division to division. There's nothing stopping your region from changing its programs now.

Originally posted by Geo:
As I said, I don't have the answer. At least I'm willing to address the question. I've talked with a number of people who have trouble finding schools. In my region, if you miss the double school, you miss the season. Is that making the SCCA more user friendly? As I said, perhaps the way things are structured needs to be changed?
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Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
... How can any newbie screw up when EVERYONE running in IT is giving the advice that we are racing for FUN. ? ...
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Sorry, what?

First - I hear that almost nowhere. Second, even where I DO hear it, people's actions speak WAY louder than their words. Maybe the NE just doesn't have the number of wound-too-tight club racers that other places do.

K
 
Originally posted by rjohnson999:
If every region holding a national had to host a driver's school, they would loose large sums of money. ......
and...... In order to serve new members we would be short changing those already invested in the programs.
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Perhaps....But you must remember...the more succesful regions market and push their "message". Also, if you don't want to have events that lose money, should those regions stop hosting Nationals when they are in danger of not breaking even??
It isn't uncommon for a National to lose a bit of money.

Smart regions may see the need to combine with another region for better economic stability...the regions that continue to trod down the same path will wither. What about a Region turning a two day Regional into a one day regional and a one day school? Offer drivers an incentive (if they are qualified) to show up on the first day and help instruct. Perhaps barter some test day passes form the track in the yearly negotiations and offer those on a first come first served basis as a first time prize for new instructors? Creative solutions ARE out there...

New blood IS important, but I know racers who aren't racing because they have been bitten by the rookie making a rookie mistake too often, and they are out of $.

So, keep in mind that NOT having properly educated drivers CAN affect ongoing programs, even if NO changes are made!

As I said in my earlier post, I know full well of the difficulty in hosting schools, and that they come at the expense of the regions resources. I think that as a first step, we need to tighten our standard while maintaining the same structure. I think we can do better with the current resources.


Today, vintange and marque club events pay higher track rental fees than many SCCA regions at the same track in part because the regions have made deals with the tracks to staff these events in return for reduced rentals or other perks.
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You have touched on what is possibly SCCAs greatest strength...its worker structure. We must strenthen this...it is the making or breaking of the club racing program. That of course includes instructors...



The only alternative would be to sacrifice existing programs to pursue the "promise" of a mythical marketing defined future.
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I disagree here...we CAN strenghten our current programs and structure to acheive dramatically better results. Having more schools is the easy way out, but I do agree it is a luxury we are hard pressed to afford at this time.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 01, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
I think that the SCCA is just where it needs to be as far as schools. The drivers schools are enough to get you started without pulling too much from your wallet. I've been thru independent professional (ie expensive) schooling and SCCA schools. Jones hit the nail on the head. At your first race, there will be all kinds of drivers. Good, bad and ugly. With different experience levels, aptitude and attitude. Treat each race as a learning experience, don't over estimate your abilities and just get track time. If you want more schools, get more schools, whatever your comfort level is.

But just remember that, you are going to wreck eventually, its just a matter of time.

And if you can't afford to replace it, you can't afford to race it.

And you shouldn't try to win at turn one of the first lap.

Tom
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Tom, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't thnk ANY organization can EVER consider itself or its programs to be "just where it needs to be"..there is always room for improvement.

A lot of clubs actually, (PCA, BMWCCA, as examples) are much stricter and more demanding in their licensing standards, for what is obstensibly 'easier' racing. I would say that the SCCA is certainly not in any danger of being considered "too demanding"!

Frankly, I would prefer NOT to race with guys who got enough education to "Get them started"...

Of course I understand that the potential for ugly stuff exists all the time...but proper training and education CAN reduce not only the frequency but the severity of the event that you consider a sure eventuality.

To not attempt to improve the driver population as a whole (the single best place is at the drivers introduction to the racing environment) is a folly, an it will bite us all sooner rather than later.


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Originally posted by lateapex911:
So, keep in mind that NOT having properly educated drivers CAN affect ongoing programs, even if NO changes are made!
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And not creating sufficient opportunities for newcomers to get their license can also hurt current programs. How big an issue is this? It's very hard to quantify. But I believe it's a bigger problem than we think, especially when you can get your license in other clubs throughout the year.

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I disagree here...we CAN strenghten our current programs and structure to acheive dramatically better results. Having more schools is the easy way out, but I do agree it is a luxury we are hard pressed to afford at this time.
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More schools is not necessarily an easy way out. For one thing, it may become a matter of survival. The SCCA is facing a major challenge from NASA and other groups. If the SCCA keeps making it harder to get a license (I'm not talking standards, I'm talking opportunities), we will lose newcomers to these other groups.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
When considering Kirk's opening comments we should remember that club racers come from many different backgrounds. You have the pit crew member that has learned the ropes and now wants to race. You have the rich kid. you have the returning racer that is now more secure financially. You have the young adult that likes to build cars and spends every last dime to race. I could go on and on. The fact is that each idividual is able to compete at different levels of preparedness. I think it has always been that way and always will. The clubs driving school and novice program has to be able to guide each type of person to be a good and safe competitor. No one says it will be easy as a matter of fact it should be a weeding process.

I am actually in the middle of my second novice program now with the ICSCC. My first round was back in the late 80'S with the SCCA. I raced about four years until I succumbed to responsibilities. Now I am able to reenter racing as a driver with a much better financial base. The ICSCC does the novice program different than the SCCA. The novices have their own class and run only on Saturday so that they can meet their volunteer requirements on Sundays. You need to complete three novice races successfully and complete six half days of worker time to get your area licence and race on sundays with your class and normal run group. During the novice races you are scrutinized by senior drivers that man the turns. Not a bad system.

Over all there are a lot of good and valid comments in this thread. If any good is to come of it club racers and their friends have to volunteer, volunteer, volunteer. The only other option is a club fund to pay and therefore attract workers. I would suggest that volunteering has been the backbone of club racing for years and is our ethical way to go.



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Peter Linssen
ITE Volvo 740 Turbo
ITB Opel Manta
www.mvpvolvo.com
Oregon Region
 
Mike, somehow I missed your post earlier. And now I find myself wakened by a disturbance outside, and can't sleep...where do I go? IT.com...of course!
rolleyes.gif


Actually it segues nicley with Peters commnets about how the ICSCC does it.

I DO think more track time (with other newbies) is beneficial, and I don't think the point of diminishing return is so early. If you are running against other newbies, it's natural that your indimidation level is lower than it would be when the big boys come storming thru. And man, you think you're pretty quick, then *poof* that bubble is burst in the first few seconds of your first practice with the big boys, and it's REALLY hammered home in your first race when they come to lap you. If you have had more time at lower pressure levels, you will have:

1- Lerned the track really well.
2- Learned your car very well
3- Been able to learn, and find speed at a comfortable pace, comparing to like minded guys.
4-Pushed the limits, and maybe even exceeded them
5-Maybe even spun, in an environment that is to some degree "comfortable" for you, and in doing so, you're more likely to apply what your instructor told you 20 minutes ago...both feet in! The very act of spinning and putting both feet in encodes your brain and body to do it the same way the next time a spin occurs. This physical encoding is used by many atheletes to improve their "automatic reflexes".

There are a lot of things to learn and to think about when you begin race car driving, and the more that can be eliminated, the more concentration can be spent on the important part! Practice makes automatic reflexes, and reduces the mind load.

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 02, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 02, 2004).]
 
Jake,

The point where we disagree isn't about the improving of the SCCA. My point is that the sooner a new driver gets confronted with the shock that he is NOT as fast as he thinks he is (due mostly to a lack of seat time), the better off he will be.

That's the most important lesson I think can be learned. And no matter how much that's drummed in at any school, not one damn one of us believed it until we actually got PASSED by someone in our first race. If the SCCA can come up with a school that teaches right off that "you're not as good as you think you are and you really need to improve alot", then that would help more than anything.

Its hard to teach that to a bunch of overly confident race car drivers because over confidence is what put us on the track in the first place.

Just my opinion from my own experiences.

And no matter what, you will wreck a car if you are in this long enough. Parts break, people make mistakes. Thats important for budgetary and safety reasons. I'm not saying that we play bumper cars or that training won't possibly tone down an accident. I'm just saying that a new driver should look at his nice new car and realize its going to get banged up due to mistakes. And make that part of the decision process on buy vs. build and what class to run based on budget.

Tom
 
Originally posted by lateapex911:
...The very act of spinning and putting both feet in encodes your brain and body to do it the same way the next time a spin occurs. This physical encoding is used by many atheletes to improve their "automatic reflexes".
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BINGO!

It's amazing how well some people's minds work at 5 o'clock in the morning!
wink.gif


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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)
 
Great thread. Back from the trail, and a couple of quick thoughts:

a. If you have limited resources, or if you absolutely have to run up front (which is highly unlikely your first year or two anyway), buy a built, proven, known frontrunner.

b. If you love a particular make or model, are willing to deal with more frustration than your buddies racing RX7s or CRXs, and are realistic about your budget and your competiveness, race what you love.

I choose (B) because I love old Triumphs and felt like I could make the 8 run at least as good as the "older" ITS cars. It's been a struggle at times, and Tristan is right -- to race, you have to be willing to overcome financial and logistical hurdles for your hobby that are far harder than many you overcome at work.

Racing doesn't just "happen." You put lots of work in and you do, when everything comes together, get lots of satisfaction out.

On the licensing process, Ron, you should do the SCCA school at Roebling in February. It is a double, and you will get your license at the end (if you complete it).

That said, I found the SCCA school to basically be an endurance test: can you show up with teh proper paperwork and make your car run for three days without trouble?

You don't learn nearly as much about going fast as you do at an HPDE, and you really only learn flags and starts about racing (if that).

My advice is do a year or so of HPDEs to learn car control etc., then build a car and go to SCCA school.

I didn't find the licensing process to be all that complicated. An hour or so with the website and the GCR and I had everything in on time.

Jeff
 
Originally posted by JeffYoung:
...My advice is do a year or so of HPDEs to learn car control etc., then build a car and go to SCCA school.

Jeff
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Jeff,

I agree, and can only offer one additional observation: To avoid the possibility that the newbie spends resources only to discover that the W2W stuff is not their cup of tea, they should consider renting a car for the school.

I know, I know, this sounds like the wrong way to go for those who can't wait to build their very own race car and hit the track, but there is plenty of time to buy/build after one decides this is the game they want to play.

Gregg
 
Car rental is a good idea if you need to make sure. It seems like alot of money for one race but a one race rental really isn't much more than what is spent per race when you own a car. Entry fee, tires, gas (tow vehicle and race car), broken stuff etc.

If you can afford it and you are just starting out and set on building, a rental or two will help with the build. You get to work with a team that knows what its doing and you can learn alot from that. Plus they worry about the towing, sandwiches and stuff.

I'd recommend buy vs build. And start with ITC or ITB. And work up to a faster car. if I had to start over, I'd go with ITC/ITB and then maybe ITS or ITA. Datsun 510's, VW's, Hondas and BMW's. I probably go with the Honda since it seems like once you get them set up, you can sit in the pits and read a book between sessions.
biggrin.gif


Tom
 
THAT'S the kind of information that newbies need, even if they want to ignore it. We don't do people any favors by perpetuating myths or leaving them making bad assumptions.

An enthusiastic guy I used to race with (ex-RE for our region) used to tell people they could "build an IT car just like his for $3000, and get out on the track." When it came time to sell his, guess what he asked for it?

Something significantly greater than $3000.

K
 
Let's try this one (as I think Kirk's thread is extremely valuable). I did put a budget together when I started, and it was way off mostly due to ignorance. So, to try and be brutally honest, here is what a "builder" is looking at for a decent car:

1. Shell: $500 to $10,000 depending on the car.

2. Cage: $1500 to $4000 depending on the builder.

3. Engine; $0 to $8000 depending on what you want to do.

4. Suspension: shocks/struts and bushings, etc.: $2000

5. Seat: $300

6. Safety equipment: $800

7. Wheels: $1000

8. Tires: $600

9. Fire bottle: $300

10. Other items: $1000

Buy a car:

ITS: $10,000 to $50,000

ITA: $5000 to $20000

ITB: $4000 to $12,000

ITC: $3000 to $10,000

Costs to race your first season (six races)

1. Entry fees: 6 X $250, or $1,500

2. Tires: 2 sets first year, or $1,200

3. Broken parts: $2000 (you are going to have to sort crap out the first year)

4. Brake pads (3 sets): $700

5. Hotels, gas, etc: $200/event, or $1,200
 
Owwwwwww! I can already feel budgetary rescritions on the Bureau of Transportation and Competition from the Minster of Domestic affairs! '

You forgot:

Loss of money on sale of M3 you stupidily bought not forseeing racing and tow vechicle in your future - $3000

Purchase of tow car - $2000-$40000

Purchase of trailer - $1000-3000

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited September 02, 2004).]
 
And don't forget the collateral costs!

Like: If you have a GF, your gift expenses will increase by double.

If a wife, then figure 2.5,

Add a "weekend away" extra per year to keep tha balance.

Also, a garage/shop addition/expansion/improvement project is likely to crop up.

And finally, budget a few hundred for misc visits to the ER for smashed fingers, burns and stuff in your eye!

And finally a few extra bucks to the phone company for the time you spend under the car talking to the expert.."You mean the little nut next to the frappervalve??"

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
People completely neglect - and then rationalize as "capital improvements" - all of the misc. crap that they need but never budgeted for.

Tiedowns, funnels, fuel jugs, trick aluminum jack, stands, tire gauge, pyrometer, VOM, diagnostic software for the laptop, new laptop, alignment tools, more tools, special tools, coilover spanners, brake bleeding kit, mechanic's glove, tire gloves, rubber gloves, buckets, cleaners, engine oil, coolant, brakleen by the case, brake fluid by the case, PS fluid, gearbox lube, awning, awning weights or anchors, cooler, grill, another cooler, folding chairs, tarps, car cover, random spray cans full of stuff, bins, boxes, more bins, more boxes, spare hardware, electrical connector kit, crimper, more special tools, trailer ramps, tool box for the special tools, little partitioned bins for hardware, hardware to fill the bins, trailer anti-sway devices, bungee cords, trailer ramps, pit cart, ATV, paper towels galore, paper towel holder for the trailer, stereo, cabinets, tire rack, compressor, generator, welder, nitrogen bottle, air bottle, air tools, electric impact wrench, cordless drill, bits, angle grinder, cup brushes, body tools, Bondo, measuring devices, level, heat gun, oil drain pans, camcorder, camcorder mount, picnic kit, folding table, blender, umbrellas, rain gear, cool suit, more new tools, toolbox, first aid kit, fire extinguisher, work lights, extension cords, spare parts, more bins for spare parts, flashlights, tire crayons, eyewash, Tylenol, and team T-shirts.

K
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
THAT'S the kind of information that newbies need, even if they want to ignore it. We don't do people any favors by perpetuating myths or leaving them making bad assumptions.

An enthusiastic guy I used to race with (ex-RE for our region) used to tell people they could "build an IT car just like his for $3000, and get out on the track." When it came time to sell his, guess what he asked for it?

Something significantly greater than $3000.

K
Click to expand...

Whoa. Hold the phone.

OK, maybe you cannot build an IT car for $3k that is just like that RE's car. But, you can build an IT car and be on the track for a lot less. Probably not a winning car, but dang, you can be out there and racing and is that so wrong. Take a road car, add a bolt-in cage, the required safety gear and there you go. Probably can go racing for $1,500 or less (assuming you already have the car).

Are you doing a disservice to those who just want to get out there and race by telling them they need to build a competitive car?

I'm the type that has to build a proper car (although I'll start out without a proper IT build engine). Buy my business partner started racing in IT with a car that was barely a step of from what it was in SS trim. Barely. But he got his heinie out there and went racing while a lot of people sat at home and dreamed up what they needed.

Look, I understand what you're saying. Let's not forget the other side.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
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