Scca It Is Time For Change Now!

[spdmonkey]

The Regions are listening but remember that they do need to hold onto the dates. Give up a date and you won't get it back. It's OK to lose the date if you think things won't get better in 2 years... otherwise, you suck it up for now and wait for better days.

This is the issue as I see it from afar. Here in GLDiv there were some regions that gave up dates and now the (good ones) are gone forever. In fact we have the opposite problem. Not enough races. I am chairman of the Champ Series and we have half as many races this year as we had 5 or more years ago. I have drivers calling me all the time wanting more dates, but regions gave them up for a variety of reasons and the drivers ultimately lose. Yet we have other regions that hold races which the drivers don't show up (me included) for a variety of reasons. I think each division has its own set of issues that need to be solved separately. No across the board changes are going to help. I know we in Ohio Valley region have listened to drivers and picked up a date that was dropped to host a second double regional. We also this week opted to move to online registration. As Regional Executive of the region I'm happy to say that we attack the issues head on. Not every region does that and thats what brings this issue up.

Be careful how much you pare down. You might end up like GL after the split

db

 

[Beran]

Too Many?

Is this too many regions for the number of tracks we have and geographic area covered?

Blue Mountain Region (97)
Regional Executive Merlin A Miller (484)824-4253

Central New York Region (5)
Regional Executive Mike Donofrio (315)451-7169 [email protected]

Central Pennsylvania Region (59)
Regional Executive Ronald A Dotts (814)355-4293 [email protected]

Finger Lakes Region (62)
Regional Executive Michael L Toombs (585)328-2617 [email protected]

Glen Region (71)
Regional Executive Edward A Zebrowski (585)330-6142 [email protected]

Mahoning Valley Region (80)
Regional Executive Stephen R Kryder (330)854-4889 [email protected]

Misery Bay Region (104)
Regional Executive Gary Neckers (716)355-4389 [email protected]

Mohawk Hudson Region (65)
Regional Executive Jack Hanifan (518)438-3754 [email protected]

New England Region (22)
Regional Executive Chris Franson (860)306-7424 [email protected]

New York Region (23)
Regional Executive Christopher Morales (516)978-6472 [email protected]

Northeastern Pennsylvania Region (25)
Regional Executive Thomas P Knorr (610)863-4709 [email protected]

Northern New Jersey Region (26)
Regional Executive Darrell T Anthony (973)697-5891 [email protected]

Philadelphia Region (31)
Regional Executive George J Bloeser, Jr. (610)965-0585 [email protected]

South Jersey Region (84)
Regional Executive James P Tornetta (609)893-5701 [email protected]

Southern New York Region (37)
Regional Executive Darryl P Lindsay (607)642-8973 [email protected]

Steel Cities Region (39)
Regional Executive James R Farrar (412)751-5235 [email protected]

Susquehanna Region (92)
Regional Executive Steve Limbert (717)432-4116 [email protected]

Washington DC Region (42)
Regional Executive James Noel (301)668-8804 [email protected]

Western New York Region (43)
Regional Executive Dale R Kunze (716)774-2714 [email protected]

 

[dickita15]

To be fair less than half those regions are “Racing Regions”. SCCA does other things besides race even if most of us here do not notice.

 

[jumbojimbo]

DB is correct. GLD has an awful regional schedule. 3 champ events in the first 4 weeks of the season then 17 weeks until the next champ event? In between a couple of restricted races mashed into national weekends. The only bright spot is IT-Fest in August.

Compare this to the NASA midwest calendar. Races are pretty much 4 weeks apart, usually the same weekend of the month. Now that's a race schedule.

How do we change our schedule? How do we get a fricking June regional race date? Some region has a to find an available weekend at a track, hopefully not ORP, sign a contract for it and then wait for the fall scheduling meeting? And give up their current date in he meantime, which gets snapped up by someone else?

I completely disagree with jjanos. I think the incoherent image we put out with a hodge podge of registration methods, results postings (if done at all), etc does hurt attendance.

I don't understand why we don't have a page at the national level with online registration, entry lists, results, protest results, pictures, video, lap times, blogs, etc. Sure, you can post your video on myscca, but who goes there? Even if you do, you can't easily see all the video from a certain race, it's a mess.

As several people have pointed out, people want to race at events with lots of other people in their class. We need a place to see who is registered so we know we are not gong to be the only car in class And an organized national results page would help novices understand that there really are people out there racing in regional races. Lack of visibility is killing us. The days are long gone when a tiny region can mimeograph some entry forms and send them snail mail.

 

[TomL]

Each Region has their own issues driven by theor own circumstances. What you guys are talking about is 10,000 foot stuff that may or may not apply to everyone. I am certainly not an advocate of excluding people. Having the PTB do their best with the run groups is all we can ask for here.

This thread was born from attendance problems in the Northeast. I see nothing other than oversupply.

This is the real answer to the problems - the PTB need to think about the best interests of the club as a whole and not focus on their "What's best for my region?" perspective. I don't know how NEDiv does date selection, but down here, the REs and race directors have a couple big meetings a year (and lots of phone calls) where all this stuff gets hashed out. I hear they are "lively", but overall the results seem to be schedule with generally well-attended races. If that isn't the case up north, maybe you need new REs.

I refrained earlier from making a smart-aleck remark when I saw Bob Zecca's original post, but here goes. To summarize that post: We need to cut back on the number of races or something really bad is going to happen .... We'll have to cut back on the number of races. Sounds like a self-correcting problem to me.

But it would be better to fix the problems yourself rather than having the solution forced on you.

 

[lateapex911]

Tom, I think the issue I see is different. We need to, as a group of regions, cut back...or the smaller regions that operate with less in the bank for a rainy day (or year), will go under.

Of course, the smaller region that only runs one race a year doesn't want to give that up, and prefers the bigger regions to cut back.

I hope it works out so everybody gets everything they want, but as always, it will come down to time and money.

 

[jjjanos]

I don't know how NEDiv does date selection, but down here, the REs and race directors have a couple big meetings a year (and lots of phone calls) where all this stuff gets hashed out. I hear they are "lively", but overall the results seem to be schedule with generally well-attended races. If that isn't the case up north, maybe you need new REs.

NEDIV does this late - like November - and the only things over which NEDIV has de jure authority are the scheduling of Nationals and whether Pocono gets a Double National. Unless it has changed recently, there's little or no information sharing in advance. Cross-polination of a series is done in advance. As a region that has a (so far) successful racing program, I'm 100% opposed to granting NEDIV any authority to limit our ability to schedule regional races.

Tom, I think the issue I see is different. We need to, as a group of regions, cut back...or the smaller regions that operate with less in the bank for a rainy day (or year), will go under.

C'est la vie. As the flag said, "unite or die." The smaller racing regions that currently hold 3 events across 3 regions but can only support 2 will need to go the Tri-Region method and share 2 dates among themselves.

 

[John Nesbitt]

NEDIV does this late - like November - and the only things over which NEDIV has de jure authority are the scheduling of Nationals and whether Pocono gets a Double National. Unless it has changed recently, there's little or no information sharing in advance. Cross-polination of a series is done in advance. As a region that has a (so far) successful racing program, I'm 100% opposed to granting NEDIV any authority to limit our ability to schedule regional races.

And there's the problem in a nutshell.

I think that we all agree that there are too many events compared to the total number of entries and volunteer days. The problem is how to improve the ratio.

As it is currently structured, SCCA Club Racing is essentially a regional affair. Each region gets its own track dates and promotes its own events, with little-to-none in the way of higher level coordination or authority.

So, in times like these, each individual region has little incentive to give up a track date (which it might never get back) in favor of the 'greater good'. The rational (for the individual region) move is to keep the date, and eke out the dollars, in hopes that the economy and entries will recover later. And in hopes that some other region will go bust and lose its date.

If one is '100% opposed' to letting some higher authority guide decisions on how many events will be scheduled, one cannot fuss when each region acts in its own interest, and we end up with the current over-supply of poorly-subscribed events.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Of course, the smaller region that only runs one race a year doesn't want to give that up, and prefers the bigger regions to cut back.

Let's look into the dynamics of an LRP event. First, NER 'lets' a smaller region in the Division host it. Why? Because there has been enough demand in the past to have X amount of events and in reality, it is almost an neccessity to spread the WORK load around. Registration, tech, corners, etc, etc. Part of it is just being a good 'neighbor' I am sure but it IS born from a need, right?

Times are different now. Pull back events. Smaller 'non-racing' regions need to take a real look at if they want to litteraly 'risk it all' to host an event that at best may break even. If I were a Rally or a Solo competitor in one of those regions, I would be screeming to stop the madness. Wait until the market comes back and then see what can be done.

The economy is weak. Demand is lower then normal. Supply is too high. Costs are NOT declining.

Economics 101 people. Decrease supply so demand for remaining events goes up. We have some great Comp Chairs up here. They add value and each event has highlights. There are just tooo many of them.

Pull a LRP and a NHMS at minimum next year - and consider dropping the MD Pocono if it can't make money.

Shoot for 1 race per month. Maybe even have all the Regions agree to one NEW SERIES that we can all work together on...

Again, do we need a meeting at LRP over some beers for some tough talk? POINT OF FACT: We drives DO NOT know all the little issues that are in play. What makes sense to me may or may not be doable. Educate us all so we can be part of the solution.

 

[Jeremy Billiel]

I always ask that Regional Executives as themselves this simple question.

What would you do if this was your business and your money was invested in it? I have found that answering this questions typically gives a different (right in my opinion) answer than what is currently happening. It's very easy to make politically based decisions when its not *your* money on the line.

Just my .02

 

[jjjanos]

So, in times like these, each individual region has little incentive to give up a track date (which it might never get back) in favor of the 'greater good'. The rational (for the individual region) move is to keep the date, and eke out the dollars, in hopes that the economy and entries will recover later. And in hopes that some other region will go bust and lose its date.

If one is '100% opposed' to letting some higher authority guide decisions on how many events will be scheduled, one cannot fuss when each region acts in its own interest, and we end up with the current over-supply of poorly-subscribed events.

1. I'm not certain there is systematic over-supply. At this point, I think it's a cyclical effect.
2. If there is systematic over-supply, let those regions who have a problem endure tha pain and leave healthy programs alone. If WDCR or NER is happy with its program but GOP needs those regions to drop an event to make the GOP event profitable, then TFB for GOP.

The immediate effect of NJMP will be decreased car counts every where else in NEDIV. NJMP may ultimately increase car counts, but not immediately. The economy is hitting us hard now. The economy hit us hard last year too.

Ham-fisted regulation by NEDIV that is of questionable legality vis-a-vis anti-competition laws is not needed. If events are losing money or low quality, they'll die on their own.

 

[dickita15]

The events at NHMS are similar in my mind to the events at Summit. Each has enough of a constituency to run events with just there regulars so there is no reason to drop events there. We do a lot of data analysis on entries. Last year when the gas price spiked at $4 per gallon we ran a very good event (170 cars I think) and going over the entry list found only three drivers not from New England. 5 regional weekends is not too much at NHMS.
Now the National we only do as a perceived obligation to our regions national drivers.

 

[Robert Zecca]

I love the participation and ideas. Andy B hit it on the head, education and understanding is key and though this may be a temporary problem because of the economy we need a long-term solution to grow SCCA. Let us all figure this out as racers and explain to the regions what may be best. YES I believe we need only one great regional series whatever it may be and have it mean something. Then we could work on the promotion, etc.... and the numbers will come.

 

[FastM3]

Hi Gang

There is no agenda in this message and I have no side, just a comment and a view from a family that races in the New England Region.

Linda and I live in Central Mass. We are 2.5 hours from Lime Rock and the same from NHMS. 7 hours from Watkins GLen and 7.5 from NJMP. We used to go to Summit when we raced Lay down Karts but that is over 10 hours. We do not go to Pocono (6 plus hours) as we never really enjoyed it when we raced karts there.

We have eliminated Lime Rock from our schedule. While the place is beautiful and great fun and a challenge to drive well it is :
Too Expensive for the race time you get.
Too easy to get a race cut short due to an accident
There seems to be a hight percentage of carnage there.
It is a lot of work for a one day event and the DE/Race combination is too expensive for a family with two drivers.
I do however enjoy instructing there for DEs.

We usually do all 5 events at NHMS and do not feel there are too many days there. The May triple seems to be the Jewel of the year. We especially enjoy the value of Doubles and would rather they all be doubles for the number of races and the value.

We travel to Watkins Glen 2 times a season recently. One to instruct at a DE and then the Fun One or the Last Chance Enduro.

Last year we also went to NJMP for the October event. Great fun and we plan on maybe 2 trips there this year. One DE with SCDA and then a race late in the season.

I also try and do 2 or 3 instruction DE days at NHMS.

So this is pretty busy for two old Farts who do it for fun.

We do not care about points. I agree with Steve Ulfelder's post completely. We do not race for points. We race for fun and enjoy seeing the same people at events so we can compare lies.

So that is about 12 events through the summer with maybe 3 or 4 autocrosses just to stay sharp.

If a Lime Rock day goes away it has no effect on us. If a NHMS day goes away we are not going to go to a Lime Rock or a Pocono event to make up for it. We will just be a little sadder as we grow older.

I do not know what the final answer is. Maybe give up the May 30 LimeRock and pick up a mid June event there to spread things out a bit. I agree, having races on back to back weekends is not a good idea. Having races that lose money is even worse. There needs to be more open communication between groups to better schedule the events.

Anyway just a viewpoint from midpack.

Phil Kogan

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Phil,

Thank you for that perspective. I am the polar opposite of you and Linda. I am a points guy. The thrill for me is the championship hunt. But when the PTB were formulating points for the 2008 season, they scrubbed down the particiation numbers and saw that 80% of the racers did 4 events or less. They tried to incent drivers to get to that 5th race with some points.

What that tells makes me realize Phil is that I am in the 20%. What *I* think makes a great series is probably irrelevant. Maybe we need a few good LOCAL series instead of one Regional series.

Just thinking outloud. We need the PTB to stand up in front of us and tell us all the angles of all the issues.

 

[RSTPerformance]

I have not read all the posts... Been very busy lately

I think it Phil best describes "most" of the racers in respect to having individual preferences for races, tracks, or even series. Cutting race weekends won't increase participation IMO. Every event in the Northeast has it's own special feature that attracts certain people.

I personally think that the "club racing" regions need to be combined into one. We should not be selecting what races to host based on the profatability of a specific region, it hasn't and won't work. As long as regions compete in something they should be working together at (growing scca) it will forever fail. Knowone wants to be that region that stops hosting races but something has to give. Are we growing regions or scca?

Also if you want real answes ask the tough questions... Do a survey at every race for a year, you will get much better results/info than you will on line where most people lurk instead of write for fear of pissing someone off, and let's face it... This is political stuff we are talking about.

Just my opinion...

Raymond "SCCA supporter" Blethen

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Cutting race weekends won't increase participation IMO. Every event in the Northeast has it's own special feature that attracts certain people.

This is the only thing I can't agree with. If each of us is going to do 4-5 weekends, and there are 12 weekend to choose from you can derive an average car count. Right now, that car count is tetering on 2 things: 1. Not enough drivers to make the race fiscally viable and 2. Expensive enough to exclude drivers - see #1.

With fewer events to choose from, those events fill up, they become less risky, less expensive and viable choices.

 

[Dave Zaslow]

I have been in the room for the NARRC meetings as NYR's drivers rep. Everyone in that room is dedicated to make the best decisions that they can in electing which races are NARRC races and how many there will be. Most of all they

Lime Rock has always been a bone of contention amongst the NARRC regions. These regions are New England, Northern New Jersey, Mohawk-Hudson, and New York. At one time everyone made money or at least broke even on these races. With Lime Rock's prices having gone to the very expensive, and the restrictions on starting and ending times each region. This year there are 3 regionals and 1 national.

Test and Tune 5/29/2009 NNJ LRP
I got your stimulus right here Regional 5/30/2009 NNJ LRP
School 6/19/2009 NER LRP
Regional 6/20/2009 NER LRP
National 7/31/2009 MHR LRP
TeamDI Pro IT Round Five 8/2/2009 MHR LRP
NARRC Runoffs 10/3/2009 NYR LRP

NNJ has elected to add value by offering a full test day and then a one day regional.
NER elected to again do a well timed school (the last until the fall Glen school) along with a one day regional.
MoHud elected to do the national along with Pro-IT, hoping that Pro-IT will keep the event solvent.
NYR does the runoffs as a traditional two day regional event.

The one day regionals were seen as popular because a Friday off from work is not needed and there is one less very expensive motel night to pay for.

Does this make sense? It does to me as a schedule, but not as an overall strategy for Northeast Region's races here. I would keep the one day events as restricted regionals, slash the run groups to 6 (as at Pocono) or 7 (splitting IT into 2 groups, unlike Pocono) and giving the SM, SSM, IT, SRF, and small bore F longer races and qualifying sessions. A 12 lap ITR/ITS/ITB race only lasts 15 minutes (!). If your group cannot produce the numbers, why should we not look to attract more people into the well attended groups? High entry fees and very short races are not a value proposition and value is what we must deliver. The remaining groups can run the National and we could allow NARRC points for only those groups. Anyone brave (stupid) enough to try this next year?

The Mother's Day double at Pocono was stuffed with a double regional, Pro-IT, and an enduro. The event barely broke even. It is scheduled immediatly after a NHMS event for Pro-IT which may or may not have an effect for racers looking to get their first fix of the year. But Pocono is a well run and entertaining event that has a track that has different challenges. Drafting is something that is a skill we should learn. I hope it continues.

The Glen races have a fabulous track that will always attract racers.

I hope NJMP fares well this year, especially as MARRS vs NARRC events we will run with folks we may not see again throughout the year.

For me, Summit, Nelson and Beaverrun are "geographically undesireable".

Yes there are too many events for this year's population of racers, but if dates are lost can they be regained when circumstances change? It certainly keeps things interesting for our directors and executives. Anyone know what is happening on the NASA side of the playground? EMRA? SCDA? PDA? BMW Club? Porsche Club?

Another 2 cents,

DZ

 

[Robert Zecca]

Guys,

Again thank you for all the great responses. I have posted this post in other forums as well and it is great to see that people truly care and understand that there is a problem. Some believe that this problem pertains to the NE and I am sure they are correct.

What we need to do now is analyze the info and make changes going into 2010. I think we need to get 20-30 drivers involved up at the NEDIV mini-con in November and work with the regions before we make our schedules for 2010. We need to see what will work best for the majority and hopefully changes will be made so that we can see less races, fuller fields and hopefully costs stay the same or go down. Everyone speaks about NASA and the reason why they do sell well in the NE and are growing is because they have one leader who makes the decisions for everyone and this works well for them. On the other hand SCCA has many regions who make their own decisions and in the past this has worked well but personally I feel we need to work together as one SCCA and not many regions to move ahead going into the future.

Think about it and lets see what we can do. You guys are on the right track.

thanks,
Bob Zecca

 

[gran racing]

From all I've known, NASA in the NE has been more of a DE than racing. That's where they make their money.

I wonder what other things might attract more racers? A survey like mentioned could be a good idea. Beyond reducing events, it's possible we can try some new things out of the norm. Part of this stems from me having gone to a Cincy Reds game last night where they had a "bring your dog to the park". 500 dogs in with owners in a designated area, lots of sponsors (dog related products). Now I'm not suggesting this same promo, but there are other things to think about.

Maybe have a group (the same in Pro IT?) that does a different type of race. We've talked about it before, but some different stuff. A 40 min race, one required pit stop with a 1 min wait in pit lane. Many other ideas have been discussed to change things up and add to the fun factor.