gran racing
Super Moderator
At the ARRC, I like having split starts. Most other times, I don't really care that much either way.
Split Starts & Stewards...
- Thread starter RSTPerformance
- Start date
You are assuming that skill has anything to do with whether you are the front or the back of the sandwich.
1. You are assuming that going to the stewards wasn't tried and did not result in a slap on the wrist.
2. Path of least resistance, yes. Solves the problem without having cars torn up and without wasting hours in the tower with little effectiveness.
3. Pretty much yes -- certain classes attract certain types. Disposable cars = carnage. Put a special me driver in a car he spent a year building and he's suddenly much more sane then when he is in a car that can be replaced by the next race.
True -- give me a 2 hour race and I won't care about knuckleheads ruining the race in my class. Problem is, I've got a 20-30 minute sprint.
I also believe that the pro sportscar bodies are moving towards split starts....
Nope. It hasn't been the class that plays nice with others that, historically, been the problem. When ITC/RX7 had the split starts, the Driver Rep tried the talk to the driver route, he tried the talk to the driver with his rep route, we tried the throw paper route... at that point there's very few options on the table other than a late night raid to disable the offending cars or gain some separation.
In ITS/ITB, there was history from the previous ITS grouping that talking to drivers did not work.
And what do you suggest be done about a driver ruining a class battle because he's too slow to maintain contact with his own class? Throw an unsportsmanlike conduct protest at him? That's probably a hair above a washer bottle protest.
Russ Myers
New member
It IS called racing. I have been that car that handles real good down the straight and wouldn't turn in a 40 acre field. I have been responsible for messing up your race. But MY stragity called for me to put you between me and my nearest competitor. He has to pass you to get to me, and if you are trying to get by me, then he has a harder time of it. I'm racing too, and I use whatever means are at my disposal to finish ahead of so and so. Now when I am all by myself, no problem moving over. So just because you are being raced hard by someone not of your class, it don't mean he's an idiot.
Russ
Russ
lawtonglenn
New member
Correct, he probably isn't an idiot, he's probably just an asshole.
If someone isn't in the heat of a class battle and fucks up the battle for a class podium, he is an asshole.
If someone is fighting for 8th place in a 10-car field and fucks up the battle for a class podium, he is an asshole.
If someone decides to pick up his pace by 3 seconds a lap when the "slower" car who is running 4 seconds a lap tries to lap him, and takes defensive lines entering and through the corner, he is an asshole.
There is a difference between using other classes when the order is ITG/ITE/ITG/ITE and when the order is ITG/ITE/ITG GAP ITE. In fact, if someone is fighting me in the second case, he scores a two-fer as he is both an idiot and an asshole.
While he's busy losing time keeping me behind him -- my race is vanishing in the distance and his race is getting closer... and when his competition closes on my arse, if I'm not being a jerk, I'll move aside because my race is gone in the distance.
Butch Kummer
New member
There's another side to that story as well.
I tend to be a catcher more than a catchee, and when I'm coming up to lap people I try to be VERY cognizant of not disrupting their battles. If I'm running by myself and come up on two (or more) guys vying for position in their class I'll time my pass to get all of them at once rather than picking them off one at a time. Of course if I've got someone in my class on my ass then all bets are off. I'll use whatever means I have available to keep them there even if it DOES mess up your race!
Personally I don't like split starts that much but I recognize that some/many people do. Again we use them a lot at the ARRC because of the nature of the event, but other times there's needs to be a VERY compelling reason for doing so.
I tend to be a catcher more than a catchee, and when I'm coming up to lap people I try to be VERY cognizant of not disrupting their battles. If I'm running by myself and come up on two (or more) guys vying for position in their class I'll time my pass to get all of them at once rather than picking them off one at a time. Of course if I've got someone in my class on my ass then all bets are off. I'll use whatever means I have available to keep them there even if it DOES mess up your race!
Personally I don't like split starts that much but I recognize that some/many people do. Again we use them a lot at the ARRC because of the nature of the event, but other times there's needs to be a VERY compelling reason for doing so.
Gary L
New member
Cool! But if you watch the end of the video, the passee apparently repasses the passor in the next turn. I'm thinkin' the passor scared himself so bad he called it quits.
Meanwhile, back on topic, out here in the wild, wild Midwest Division, we run all IT classes in one group. That's right... ITC/B/7/A/S/R/E... combined. These are typically 25-35 car fields, and I guarantee you that (as an ITB driver), I almost always have to deal with ITA/ITS cars, while trying to stay up with (and sometimes, although rarely, ahead of
) the likes of Albin and Hemmingson. It's called road racing boys and girls; out-of-class challenges are part of the deal, IMO.
StephenB
New member
I think ITS/R with ITB in the northeast is a complete shit show. ALMOST 50% of the races in the last 9yrs. has been decided by the traffic of ITS and ITR cars running similar lap times of the B cars. PRO-IT had the same issue with ITB and all the miatas. Its time for a change. If we are endurance racing not sprint racing then I agree we do not need split starts. In a sprint race with less then 20laps you get screwed real fast.
Stephen
Stephen
StephenB
New member
Cool! But if you watch the end of the video, the passee apparently repasses the passor in the next turn. I'm thinkin' the passor scared himself so bad he called it quits.
Meanwhile, back on topic, out here in the wild, wild Midwest Division, we run all IT classes in one group. That's right... ITC/B/7/A/S/R/E... combined. These are typically 25-35 car fields, and I guarantee you that (as an ITB driver), I almost always have to deal with ITA/ITS cars, while trying to stay up with (and sometimes, although rarely, ahead of
This is option number 2 that I would be in favor of here in the northeast. Run all IT together and lengthen the race. Having to IT groups with less than 20 cars is a waist of track time. Kudos to your peers for running everyone together!
Edit: yes I am contradicting myself but that is because I would rather have a full field to run with BUT if we are running only 20 or less cars make it a better race for those racing and give us a split start.
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JoshS
New member
We do that too in San Francisco Region, although just the GCR classes, not IT7/ITE. Actually we also combine FP/HP in there but we rarely have more than 2 cars in those classes combined. So it's ITR/ITS/ITA/ITB/ITC/FP/HP. Field sizes are usually around 50, but it's as low as 35 sometimes and occasionally up to 60.
Split starts hurt the cars at the front of the group, since they end up in traffic much sooner than they otherwise would. My races now (being at the front of the group) usually have two phases -- the first half of the race, when my class is all together, and the second half, when we have caught the tail end of the field and the race is really all about getting through slower traffic. With a split start, that fun first-half would be much shorter.
gran racing
Super Moderator
Much of this is track dependant.
Running at Lime Rock which is a momentum track, yes, many of the mid-pack ITS cars can make it interesting. I've even had an ITS guy tell me that I wouldn't let him by. I was in 1st place with him behind me, then 2nd place ITB behind him. The ITS car wasn't close to winning, he couldn't pass me on the straights and I wasn't blocking although didn't pull over and slow down, and I wanted to keep him inbetween. He should have let the 2nd place ITB car by. ITS cars most certainly impact the ITB race but even with a split start, I'm not so sure how different things would be.
The Glen which is more of a power track, most ITS/R cars and get enough distance between us B cars based on power differences.
It can be frustrating to see your competitors drive off while being stuck behind a slower ITS car who won't let you by, out powers you on the straight and bogs in the turns.
Running at Lime Rock which is a momentum track, yes, many of the mid-pack ITS cars can make it interesting. I've even had an ITS guy tell me that I wouldn't let him by. I was in 1st place with him behind me, then 2nd place ITB behind him. The ITS car wasn't close to winning, he couldn't pass me on the straights and I wasn't blocking although didn't pull over and slow down, and I wanted to keep him inbetween. He should have let the 2nd place ITB car by. ITS cars most certainly impact the ITB race but even with a split start, I'm not so sure how different things would be.
The Glen which is more of a power track, most ITS/R cars and get enough distance between us B cars based on power differences.
It can be frustrating to see your competitors drive off while being stuck behind a slower ITS car who won't let you by, out powers you on the straight and bogs in the turns.
steve b
New member
I think the ITS/ITB split starts benefit the front running ITB cars and have little or no effect on anyone else.
Yes the front running ITS cars reach the slow ITB cars earlier. But they are still sorted out by then and the speed difference between a front running ITS and a slower ITB is so great that they should have no problem getting around.
Slow ITS cars and fast ITB cars is where the problem is. They shouldn't even see eachother on a split start if they are running approximately the same lap times. (so mission accomplished)
As one of the slower ITB cars, I run the risk of giving up an extra lap on a split start but that's the price I pay until I get faster and is certainly not reason enough for the front running B cars to have their races messed up.
Yes the front running ITS cars reach the slow ITB cars earlier. But they are still sorted out by then and the speed difference between a front running ITS and a slower ITB is so great that they should have no problem getting around.
Slow ITS cars and fast ITB cars is where the problem is. They shouldn't even see eachother on a split start if they are running approximately the same lap times. (so mission accomplished)
As one of the slower ITB cars, I run the risk of giving up an extra lap on a split start but that's the price I pay until I get faster and is certainly not reason enough for the front running B cars to have their races messed up.
Hey, I watched you until diaper duty called half-way through the last MARRS and I wouldn't describe you as being one of the slower ITB cars!
Eagle7
New member
I've got two recent experiences where I had to consider what to do about the traffic behind me.
Last year I was running 2nd in ITS when I flatspotted a tire. Major vibration which slowed me down a little. I saw the two ITA leaders coming nose to tail with a little more than one lap to go. I gladly eased off a little and took the wide line so that they could both get by without impacting their race. Little did I know that 3rd place in ITS was part of their freight train. He probably would have gotten by anyway, but that sure made it easy for him.
This year at the IT-Fest, I somehow lost the stones to keep the pace. I was slower than the mid-pack ITB cars. In Sunday morning's qualifying race, there were three of them stuck behind me. I tried to figure out how to manage that, without succeeding. They'd catch me one or two corners before a straightaway, then I'd pull a country mile on them after the twisties. I figured I'd have to run half throttle for half a lap if I pulled over to let them by, and that didn't seem too appealing at the time. I tracked down the one behind me immediately after the session and apologized profusely, explaining my confusion about how to "do the right thing". He figured if I had just pulled over in one corner I never would have seen them again. I don't think it was quite that simple.
Last year I was running 2nd in ITS when I flatspotted a tire. Major vibration which slowed me down a little. I saw the two ITA leaders coming nose to tail with a little more than one lap to go. I gladly eased off a little and took the wide line so that they could both get by without impacting their race. Little did I know that 3rd place in ITS was part of their freight train. He probably would have gotten by anyway, but that sure made it easy for him.
This year at the IT-Fest, I somehow lost the stones to keep the pace. I was slower than the mid-pack ITB cars. In Sunday morning's qualifying race, there were three of them stuck behind me. I tried to figure out how to manage that, without succeeding. They'd catch me one or two corners before a straightaway, then I'd pull a country mile on them after the twisties. I figured I'd have to run half throttle for half a lap if I pulled over to let them by, and that didn't seem too appealing at the time. I tracked down the one behind me immediately after the session and apologized profusely, explaining my confusion about how to "do the right thing". He figured if I had just pulled over in one corner I never would have seen them again. I don't think it was quite that simple.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
I've watched from the hill at Lime Rock how the ITB guys get the dick sandwich from ITS cars. I watched one RX-7 repeatedly screw up an ITB leader once with a chop to the apex that I would have considered his fault if there had been contact, but the ITB guy ran over the inside curb and jumped all over the brakes. THAT really helped his lap time entering the second longest straight of the track. I certainly see the issue.
As an instructor, I emphasize to my students to be aware of who and what they are racing. I suggest they should let a slower class car go by if it's a leader....then ease off the throttle and follow them...they might learn something. And if you can't stay ahead of a car TWO classes behind, you have issues, so learning might be a good thing.
Stephen, if I had been the ITB guy who got balked repeatedly, I would have had a stern word with the 10th place ITS car. Do you know if you or any ITB guys have had direct discussions with the offending ITS guys? I know I wanted to go have a chat with the RX-7 driver, but felt it wasn't my place....
StephenB
New member
Jake,
in the past I personally have talked to the drivers but to be honest I was never really "stern" and certainly never threatened a protest to any ITR or S drivers. I think that most of the B guys around here are nonconfrontational and other than comments to eachother and in impound I dont see anyone going up to anyone one on one and probably not up to the tower. We do continue to laugh after we see the grid and wonder how some of those R & S cars are so slow... then we get on the track and realize why! I think ITB drivers in our area use the cool down lap to cool down! I remind myself all the time this is for fun and if they dont hit me and damage my car i usually am cooled off by the time i get in. In the rain it gets even more exciting since the B cars are faster than almost all R and S cars in the northeast.
I know if you dont talk to them they wont know but reality is that most that are racing back with us are either arrogant, learning, or they aren't going to be around in a week or 2. I like the idea of split starts because it keeps it fun and cuts out the unwanted drama.
Stephen
PS : next year I will probably regret saying all this as I am sure Raymond will bring this back up if I am slower than him!
in the past I personally have talked to the drivers but to be honest I was never really "stern" and certainly never threatened a protest to any ITR or S drivers. I think that most of the B guys around here are nonconfrontational and other than comments to eachother and in impound I dont see anyone going up to anyone one on one and probably not up to the tower. We do continue to laugh after we see the grid and wonder how some of those R & S cars are so slow... then we get on the track and realize why! I think ITB drivers in our area use the cool down lap to cool down! I remind myself all the time this is for fun and if they dont hit me and damage my car i usually am cooled off by the time i get in. In the rain it gets even more exciting since the B cars are faster than almost all R and S cars in the northeast.
I know if you dont talk to them they wont know but reality is that most that are racing back with us are either arrogant, learning, or they aren't going to be around in a week or 2. I like the idea of split starts because it keeps it fun and cuts out the unwanted drama.
Stephen
PS : next year I will probably regret saying all this as I am sure Raymond will bring this back up if I am slower than him!
RSTPerformance
New member
I have had words with ITS/ITR cars and they havnt gone well. The reality is no rules say that a car out of class needs to let another car go... And I agree, I am the first person who will enjoy racing with anyone in any class. Unfortunatly some NOT ALL ITS/ITR cars that can't keep up tend to be a little behind the learning curb but think they can hit the Apex every time. I have been spoken to for speaking up as I am a steward and I am suposed to know better than start drama... Not sure I agree but I can say most of the stewards will not support a slower car complaining about a faster car whether it is an ITB driver complaining about an ITS car or an AS driver complaining about a GT1 car. To many people (be it stewards or drivers) don't understand the differnce between a fast lap and driving in traffic. One good lap on the results does not show/prove anything about someones ability to drive IMO.
Raymond "thanks for the feedback!" Blethen
Raymond "thanks for the feedback!" Blethen
jumbojimbo
New member
Well, that's a matter of perspective. Split starts hurt the FASTEST class at the front of the group. If you're running more than two classes then the leaders in the fastest class get the benefit and the fasters guys in ALL the other classes feel the same pain dealing with faster class slower cars. Not every fast class gets the benefit, only the faster class does.
You're worried about hitting traffic SOONER, whereas every other class STARTS wtih traffic on lap 1.
Granted, split starts aren't feasable in run groups with 3, 4, 5 classes. And I tend to agree the complicatons and risks associated with split starts are problematic. But I'm in ITC and when our class gets screwed in one way or another in 50% of races, I don't feel much sympathy for the ITA cars that are going to catch me 4 laps sooner due to a split start. Especially when our fields are sometimes just as large as B and A or even SM.
"I'm in a fast class and we've had the benefit of unimpeded races for the last 20 years, we need to maintain the status quo." That arguement is a non-starter for me. Safety, yes. Complications, yes. Only the fastest class has a right to better races, no.
I really appreciated the effort the ITA cars made at IT Fest to not mess up the ITC races. During the Sunday morning race the ITA leader actually chose not to pass several ITC cars on the last lap just to let us race one more lap. Sadly several of us still saw the checkered flag and thought it was for us and didn't race that one more lap. Doh, lesson learned.
gran racing
Super Moderator
Oh man, I should never admit to this one and certainly didn't tell Gulick this one!!
I spoke up to a guy a national race this year during an impound all. The guy was unbelivealbly slow, which in itself isn't a big problem. The guy would completely block every freaking car, be totally clueless, and drove like to total jerk. Fortunately as annoyed as I was and seriously wanted to hit him when on track (he had essentially no bumper so it would have damaged his car quite a bit), I approached him in a nice manner. Note to self: Be certain to speak with the right driver. Doh!! Seriously, two small British cars that look like each other AND both are actually working? So glad I was nice in my approach. LOL! After all of that, I didn't bother speak with the guy I meant to. But wait!! I did manage to back up into the innocent guys car when leaving impound. Oh yeah, he loved me.
I spoke up to a guy a national race this year during an impound all. The guy was unbelivealbly slow, which in itself isn't a big problem. The guy would completely block every freaking car, be totally clueless, and drove like to total jerk. Fortunately as annoyed as I was and seriously wanted to hit him when on track (he had essentially no bumper so it would have damaged his car quite a bit), I approached him in a nice manner. Note to self: Be certain to speak with the right driver. Doh!! Seriously, two small British cars that look like each other AND both are actually working? So glad I was nice in my approach. LOL! After all of that, I didn't bother speak with the guy I meant to. But wait!! I did manage to back up into the innocent guys car when leaving impound. Oh yeah, he loved me.