Street tires in IT? My Review

[Greg Amy]

If you are going to have a "gentleman's agreement" per tires, have a small trophy /pizza party just for the guys on the right tires. Dont allow the HOHOs to eat any pizza.

So...you're recommending we shun them.

I need to do a test day on the Rivals I bought four months ago and see what this things are like.

Note that these tires are far, far, far better than anything we had when Improved Touring was born. But technology moves on...recall the first-gen RX-7 was in ITS and my old Rabbit GTI was a pretty competitive car in ITA...the real issue here is relative performance to the extent of what is compliant to the regs.

I think we should start a movement where no one is allowed to rebuild their engine...we only allow people to run junkyard engines. We'd all save a ton of money. (/tongue-in-cheek)



- GA

 

[Chip42]

So for those of you getting all excited about the "street tire revolution" I caution you: either change the regs, create a completely new class with tire-specific regs, or simply STFU when someone comes and races against you with a Hoosier tire and leave them alone. They're following the rules that you created.

Just sayin'.

- GA

that's why we're shooting down the middle - voluntarily sign up to a asub-class where 180+ IS the rule, but you are scored outside of the official event. you may run hohos and not play in our sandbox, I don't want to take away from the guys who can afford and have the talent to run up front, but I do want to throw a bone to the guys who are out there for fun without a real shot at a podium (for many reasons, many self imposed) and give them a way to have a shot at some sort of victory and save money doing it.

if the IT rules become 180+, then the whole concept of racing at a lower level of prep on cheaper tires for the fun of the sport dies off, because the guys who are running for the red jacket will be in the same list again.

and, FWIW, I wasn't getting stampeded because of my street tires, what passes were made on me were mostly because of some cobwebs and being gun shy after a few bad weekends. I ran with the same pack I ran with last time out on HoHos.

 

[lawtonglenn]

that's why we're shooting down the middle - voluntarily sign up to a a sub-class where 180+ IS the rule, but you are scored outside of the official event...."

Greg's point is that IT7 is already a sub-class, but the tire restriction is NOT the rule, just informal

It seems silly to have a sub-sub-class, essentially IT7N (for Nittos) when

1. IT7 is already an NER sub-class (to ITA)
2. Almost everyone in NER IT7 is already running the Nittos
3. The NER IT7 group has the ability to change the IT7 rules (in NER) to spec the Nittos

and not only is it silly to have such a sub-sub-class, but since the IT7 group has refused to change
the regs, they have in effect refused to create or participate in this sub-sub-class, so really if
they don't want to do it, who would? ... How about the guy who wants to run IT7 with Hoosiers, should
he petition to start his own sub-sub-class (IT7H for Hoosiers) ? ... He doesn't need to, as he is
already winning!

I'm thinking of creating a sub-class ITSM (for Mazda) so Jon Farbman and I don't have to worry about
those pesky overdogs in the E46s

Glenn

 

[Greg Amy]

I am happy to see new racers posting here . Welcome.

That's not the atmosphere you're portraying.

The 2014 NARRC battle in ITA has been epic so far: five good drivers in five different well-prepped cars (not all Miatas!) As we head into late September the excitement is palpable for the final clash at the NARRCoffs at Lime Rock.

Everyone is parked together in the B Paddock. As we wait for first session to start the "hanger flying" and ball-busting is going strong. Suddenly, we notice a van with Ohio plates coming down the hill, pulling a well-prepped ITA Miata on an open trailer...as he pulls closer to our paddock we spot it -- Hoosier tires. Everyone gets a little uneasy...

After first qually, fears are confirmed: our top-5 warriors are all within 0.3 seconds of each other...but 1.5s in arrears to the Ohio Miata. The warriors are doing the mental math, and realizing that the difference in points between 1st and 2nd - which is larger than than between 2nd and 3rd, and so forth - will very likely have an effect on the final championship. Lots of grumbling ensues.

Three of the guys pull up their pants and walk across to Mr Ohio's paddock.

"Hey, congrats on the pole!"

"Thanks! Love this place! My first time here, surprised I'm so competitive."

"Yeee-ah, about that. See, we here in the Northeast are all running 'street tires', one with high treadwear ratings."

"Oh! Sorry, I didn't know. Did I miss a requirement in the supps? Are you protesting me?"

"No, no! You're good, it's a 'gentleman's agreement, we're just doing it within ourselves to save money. But here's the rub: we've been racing like this all year, and this is our final marquee race, and the points are really, really tight...I mean like 'you are gonna affect the championship if you win' kinda tight."

"Um, OK. So what are you saying?"

"Well, yeee-ah, we were wondering: if you're leading on the last lap, would you mind pulling off into the pits, let us all go by? That way you won't affect our championship. We'd reeeally appreciate it."

"Are you asking me to lay down on the last lap and intentionally lose, after having towed all the way over here from Ohio to compete?"

"Yeeeeah, that's it, thaaanks."

"Um. No. No, I don't think I'm going to do that."

"Uh, what?"

"I towed all the way here from Ohio, after hearing about how cool Lime Rock and the NARRCOffs was. I'm on the pole. I'm faster than you. I'm likely to win. I'm fully compliant to the regulations. I am not going to lay down and intentionally lose this race. Sorry."

"But...!"

"No. Thanks."

Our fearless warriors walk away mad, shocked that someone would not capitulate to their obvious enlightenment. "That guy's just an asshole", they assure themselves.

Well guess what? That guy wasn't the asshole, our warriors were the assholes. Our warriors are the ones that decided everyone else should play to their rules instead of the rules. And they're all butt-hurt about it.

Moral of the story: you don't want to get butt-hurt, get Topeka to change the IT regs. Or create new classes for those tires. But if you want to win in ITA, plan on buying Hoosiers.

Everybody else already knows and accepts it. That's the rules.

- GA

 

[mossaidis]

Nice example tGA. Balance is good. Yes, the IT rules should change to accommodate this 180+ tw tires as standard. That is, if IT is really a regional-only, entry-level, low-cost class SCCA claims it to be.

P.S. NARRC points don't get awarded if you "just showed up" in the NARRC running. hugs.

 

[EH9racing]

The 2014 NARRC battle in ITA has been epic so far: five good drivers in five different well-prepped cars (not all Miatas!) As we head into late September the excitement is palpable for the final clash at the NARRCoffs at Lime Rock........

And they're all butt-hurt about it.

- GA

Greg,

A. Those imaginary ITA guys are competing for a Street Tire Championship and can go pound sand if they don't like that they don't get to win the NARRCoff. Sorry. But that is what they signed up for.

B. You are assuming that IT-ST will be handled like the NARRC IT7N group, however what Chip has set up down in CFR is very much different from a simple gentlemen's agreement. Cars are clearly labeled, points are awarded per grouping, IT normal vs. ITST. Also knowing Chip, he will talk/post about it alot, because Chip talks, so alot of people will know about it.

 

[Greg Amy]

Some guys just like to go fast and look good on the results page.

So wait a sec: you're comparing taking full advantage of the rules (with an intent to win) as a desire to "look good on the results page"?

Really...?

Just to be clear, I'm not against this whole Tire Evolution, any more than I'm against CrapCan cars racing in Improved Touring. I'm an inclusive kinda guy, whatever you want to slip your dingy into is fine with me -- as long as you're not trying to force me to accept that as "normal" or force me to do it (contrary to the regs.)

That said, this whole movement is coming across a lot like some organic food proponents setting up a protest and petition in the parking lot of a McDonald's. People will walk by, say "hey, you're right, I like that", sign the petition, and then they'll walk into the McDonald's and get a Big Mac, supersized. Then as they waddle outside in gastronomic pain the protesters will berate them for their voluntary choices.

Next time, the diners will go somewhere else.

Don't be organic food proponents. They're dicks. You are free to offer alternatives but let other people make their own choices (within the regs).

- GA

 

[Greg Amy]

...the IT rules should change to accommodate this 180+ tw tires as standard...

And as a member I'd actually support that*. But it's going to be a hard sell; dare I say something like "cold day in Hell"...? If something like that is to happen, it's going to have to come from within, and the way to do that is via sub-classes that, in the end, have higher participation numbers than the GCR classes. And it has to be nationwide, because it'll take only a very small handful of opponents to veto it.

Think you can do that? Then do it.

But don't f**k with the people that are following the current regs.

- GA

* Remembering back in "the old days" where we added a "discernible tread" rule because everyone was shaving the Rs down (@ ~$25/tire) to damn near the carcass..you're figuring that additional cost into your mindset of Utopia, right...?

 

[Chip42]

this is not a rules change

Let me be VERY clear that the STC idea I'm peddling is all about making racing cheaper for the guys who AREN'T fighting for a championship.

I have NO desire to change IT rules to a new, higher TW number. I ENCOURAGE those of you out there who are less competitive and happy with your level of effort (i.e. you aren't winning and you are ok with that) to try the 180+ tires because A: they are cheaper, and B: they last longer, making them cheaper still, and C: they are just as much fun. because FUN is why the guy I'm talking to is doing this.

I'm not approaching ISC, Flatout, The Keane Bro.s, Dave Boles, or other championship contenders of any region about this. because they have the skills, the car, the wallets, and the drive to win. to them I say "go get 'em". to guys like me who simply aren't there yet, or have past that point in our hobby and are just out there having fun and not getting in the way, I say "here's a sticker, lets run STC!" and so far, they like the idea.

could someone sign up with a top level car and dominate us all? yes. but how is that different than now? I'll give you a clue: it's not. the "core" Street Tire group still wins because we're still running door to door and having fun, but on cheaper equipment, meaning we can do it more often. all we're racing for is fun. we identify ourselves and set up a sub points system just to spice it up a little. we don't even have ashtrays to fight for, just bragging rights at the beer party.

I think you are making a mountain out of a small ant mound.

 

[Ron Earp]

Nice example tGA. Balance is good. Yes, the IT rules should change to accommodate this 180+ tw tires as standard. That is, if IT is really a regional-only, entry-level, low-cost class SCCA claims it to be.
.

Then lobby to get the rules changed. Don't make some gentlemen's agreement in the paddock that circumvents the rules. It's almost like what some of you are proposing is nested layers of competition so everyone is a winner. Is that what we've become? Tier 1 - Race tires, Tier 2 - shaved/new 200TW tires, Tier 3- 200 TW tires

And, be sure you're ready for what will happen when you get the rules changed. You're still going to have the best prepped teams on the podium, and best prepped might mean new shaved and properly cycled street tires for every race.

And when you get those rules changed, are you going to consider some wheel size changes for IT? 15" 205s might be great for a 2100 lb ITB car, but they don't work so well on a 2700 lb RX7 at 185 rwhp.

 

[Greg Amy]

I think you are making a mountain out of a small ant mound.

Maybe. Probably. But I've seen what can happen with initiatives like this (when not running as discrete classes), where everyone (both sides) gets all butt-hurt, and it's not what I'd like to see across the board. Let's do it your way, see how it shakes out.

Rotards, change the freakin' regs!!!! It goes right along with your philosophy, and will attract more competitors. - GA

 

[XelderX]

Another point to be made about reducing costs that I've heard from current competitors is that the street tires cause less wear and tear on other components on the car. Brakes and wheel bearings/hubs last much longer further reducing costs.

 

[tim240z]

Another point to be made about reducing costs that I've heard from current competitors is that the street tires cause less wear and tear on other components on the car. Brakes and wheel bearings/hubs last much longer further reducing costs.

Not too sure about brakes. Our brake wear was as consistant on BFG rivals as a decent set of take of HoHos... But this is a Zcar we're talking about.

Ron may be able to chime in, but we got about 4 hours out of a set of R4 Porterfeilds (Break in ,3 hour enduro and P then Q at Sebring.) There wasn't much left after that.

Now as far as hubs and bearings, I could see that as data has shown less cornering Gs on 180+ tires.

 

[Flyinglizard]

Very true. The entire car will love the lower grip tires.


Most of the worlds' amateur racing is done on 180 or higher TW tires. The USA has unique tires and even the HoHo are cheap in the bigger picture. Years of selling my book allover the world has enlightened me as to the rest of the world's racing cost. VW Cup EURO, DR , all Japan etc , Most are very hard tires.

GA, of course, as long as HoHo are legal, some racers will choose speed over $racing. it is expected.

For sure mountain from ant bite.

I am all for changing the rule. makes a lot of sense.

 

[gran racing]

Suddenly, we notice a van with Ohio plates coming down the hill, pulling a well-prepped ITA Miata on an open trailer...as he pulls closer to our paddock we spot it -- Hoosier tires.

For those that might think this won't happen, it most certainly does. Twice at Summit Point I've had a talkin' to. Once just in general since I qualified well and the other guys were in the middle of a championship, another cause I had two sets of just heat cycled ho-hos. Some did not like that. It was a long tow for me, a competitive class, and I wanted to do my best. Eventually it will happen. Even if on street tires, those drivers are racing, right? Otherwise we'd be doing HPDEs.
The other challenge up in the N.E. is how many regions there are in such close proximity. If I go to the street tires, go to the Glen, many entrants are not a part of my region will be there. No chance of winning. Right now, I want a shot of winning or to at least do the best I can to have the greatest chance of winning.
Lets not forget the DOT tire rule so we stay away from those expensive slick tires. Eventually it catches up.

You're still going to have the best prepped teams on the podium, and best prepped might mean new shaved and properly cycled street tires for every race.

It doesn't sound like Chip and some others are trying to move up in the ranks, but get the drivers to run less expensive tires. You are correct, the drivers will continue find ways to enhance the tires they have available to them.

Another point to be made about reducing costs that I've heard from current competitors is that the street tires cause less wear and tear on other components on the car.

That is absolutely true. When I was going much slower...what wear items? As I progressed and begain using sticker tires, so did the wear items become much more evident.

 

[georgethefierce]

As someone that will be new to racing with the SCCA this coming season the NER 7 guys have lowered the barrier to entry with their sub-sub class to the point where I can justify turning both ways, I like it and especially for a class that isn't very popular on the whole it makes perfect sense to get these cars out of the barns and allow people of limited budget like me to give it a shot on cheap tires.

I also get that people can afford to run at the pointy end and should be allowed to do everything within the rules to get there, I see no reason to limit all of IT to a street tire, there are some great battles regionally up front and I appreciate what those guys do to be that quick (running fresh rubber being one of those things).

IMHO something like the street tire initiative can work (at least in the short term) with a like minded group of guys that get "it", it's too bad that people get "shunned" but what is the % of shunned to new/old blood that couldn't be out there if they couldn't run on the cheap? just a nOObs $.02

 

[gran racing]

George, IT has always been a place you can run on the cheap. I started off in ITA (the car was later moved to ITB where it should have been) using $25 a piece old Spec Racer Ford tires. I still had an absolute blast and was able to run right around mid-pack. This whole IT-7 thing in the NER is kind of cool and all, but it's not some amazing revelation which hasn't already existed.

By the way, I LOVE being able to go to the manufacturer, click on items I need and know they actually have them in stock.

 

[GTIspirit]

Very true. The entire car will love the lower grip tires.


Most of the worlds' amateur racing is done on 180 or higher TW tires. The USA has unique tires and even the HoHo are cheap in the bigger picture. Years of selling my book allover the world has enlightened me as to the rest of the world's racing cost. VW Cup EURO, DR , all Japan etc , Most are very hard tires.

GA, of course, as long as HoHo are legal, some racers will choose speed over . it is expected.

For sure mountain from ant bite.

I am all for changing the rule. makes a lot of sense.

I'm somehow missing something here. Why is a rule change necessary?

If you want to run street tires in IT, just do it! Or? There's nothing that prevents it now, right?

And if someone wants to buy wins by prying their wallet open for the purple crack, let them. Let them have that satisfaction, that with their R-comps they beat someone on street tires.

And if street tires were mandated in the rules, what's to prevent someone from buying a freshly set of heat cycled and shaved tires for every race? Just to gain that little bit of perceived advantage to try and buy a win. And if the competition is really that close that every minuscule advantage matters, where's the satisfaction in winning by outspending someone?

Is it really that important to be on the top of the podium, or are you racing for fun? And if you're just racing for fun, because you have a real day job, is the racing any less fun if you use street tires instead of R-comps?

Personally, I'm all for a standardized sticker to proclaim you're running street tires, to shun those people on the purple crack.

 

[gran racing]

Seriously??? Sorry, but that cracks me up. Based on that, you must be running an entirely stock car with old crappy OEM suspension, never tuned the engine, no aftermarket parts what-so-ever or even bother to have an alignment done. Otherwise you are right there trying to "buy a win".

 

[georgethefierce]

George, IT has always been a place you can run on the cheap. I started off in ITA (the car was later moved to ITB where it should have been) using $25 a piece old Spec Racer Ford tires. I still had an absolute blast and was able to run right around mid-pack. This whole IT-7 thing in the NER is kind of cool and all, but it's not some amazing revelation which hasn't already existed.

By the way, I LOVE being able to go to the manufacturer, click on items I need and know they actually have them in stock.

I think I get your point and it's valid one, I've always hung around the garages with the ITA guys and my personal observation was that it wasn't exactly "entry level" but I can see where the intent was.