Street tires in IT? My Review

[downingracing]

...I ran an hpde on my lemons star specs in my ITA car, and it was 2 and 3 seconds off my pace at that that track....but it was more "entertaining"...a bit looser, etc...

This was part of my point. These tires are 'fun' and can make driving more of a challenge (which is fine for lemons or chump with the endurance format), but the 'looser' part will make them a challenge in a sprint race. For a track day or enduro - sure.

 

[Chip42]

as dave said - there's stuff like my STC effort: do what is legal already, but in a group, save money, stay mid pack, have some fun, and as George carlin once put it: "be white, be proud, be lame, and get the hell off the dance floor". if you start running for the class podium while on street tires, you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't switch to a faster tire.

then there are the people who think treadwear limits should be the rule in IT. that's fine, I think it would work well in that the tires are fast and safe and can create good racing, but I disagree that it will be a solution more than a short term change. you have to have dark to appreciate light (cue your favorite 80's fantasy movie) - once everyone's on the same tire you're back to square 1.

the evolution of the tire's capability will continue no matter what. todays' R comp will be met by tomorrows 180TW and so on. we don't need to accelerate that any more by forcing the top level amateurs on to them, nor by forcing hoosier's hand in getting into the market by taking away their IT market share with a rules change.

 

[Ron Earp]

Slapped together a quick spreadsheet to get a handle on costs for a race weekend. Clearly one could estimate the cost difference between running R vs S tires just on the tire costs alone. But that doesn't give you a good perspective on total costs or tire costs in relation to other parameters. Making some assumptions, as we all must, I come up with about a savings of 25% if an A or S car were to run street tires for a three weekend year (be honest, a lot of you don't get out more than that as shown by the SARRC points spreadsheet).

Not inconsiderable by any means. However I don't think the barrier to entry into SCCA racing, or more racing for some, can't all be assigned to the cost of tires. A savings of 25% is certainly welcome, but we're still shelling out close to $1000 per weekend and that is for only running a double SARRC. Run more races and the entry fees climb, particularly for ECRs.

And not factored into the calculations are truck and trailer ownership costs, which as we all know are quite expensive. No racing, no need for truck and trailer. And there isn't any maintenance or repair on the race car shown, nor funds for development on the car.

Racing is expensive. Everyone running street tires isn't going to change that.

This isn't the answer to "how to make club racing cheaper." So long as we understand that, and what the goal is, I agree the discussion is a good one.

I'm also interested in the ultimate goal. This idea of flying under the radar with "paddock agreements so that we don't change the rules and dont' attract the attention of the tire companies" is silly.

 

[Flyinglizard]

The fast SM guys are running sticker Hoes each qual session. The HOHOs slow down over 1 sec per lap @ Sebring and PBIR @ the 4 th HC.( larger than driver noise , hence the stickers )
@ PBIR the left side Hoes bareley finish a 30 min race without cording. These guys use 2- 3 sets each double race weekend. Not 1 set per year.
Contrast the falloff of the 180 tires, less than .8sec .(other than Falkens).Inside or very near the driver induced data noise.


Many sessions before cords. Not a lot of fall off over the life of the tire.


The tire wars will always be a large part of racing. Shaved stickers will always have some advantage. The best funded guys will run them.

To imply that 180 tires are less safe than Hoes is just bad information. The same crap happens only at a slightly slower speed.
My crapcans and the SM run the same tires so that I can use the 180 tires, Goodyear slicks, Hoes, etc on the SM, Goodyear slicks,etc. The car does a little more "ooching" drop throttle onthe 180 tires than the Hoes. That is all . 4-6 sec slower .
180 tires can last well into 20hrs. Esp if it is large and the setup keeps the outer edge cool.
The longest lasting setup, is not the fastest setup.

6 of the 180 tires should get anyone through 20 hrs of hard racing. ( maybe not PBIR)

 

[lawtonglenn]

Extrapolating Ron's numbers for someone who does more racing,
and amortizing the street tires only over the year's races

3 weekends x 2 races = 6 races : $2690/$3158 = 85%
6 weekends x 2 races = 12 races : $4880/$6316 = 77%
9 weekends x 2 races = 18 races : $7070/$9474 = 75%
12 weekends x 2 races = 24 races : $9260/$12632 = 73%

The limit is actually 70% as the R tire cost in Ron's model is 30% of the total,
so as the S tire value goes to zero, that's the best that can be accomplished

.

 

[downingracing]

?.. To imply that 180 tires are less safe than Hoes is just bad information. The same crap happens only at a slightly slower speed....

Anyone who has run a race tire and a tw180+ tire will say that the tw180+ tire is sloppy and doesn't perform like the race tire when driver hard. (If they don't agree - they aren't driving the race tire anywhere near their limit). That doesn't mean it is less safe, but it does mean that you can't drive the car as hard as you could on the race tire. They do last forever and are great for endurance racing or a track day.

 

[downingracing]

Ron, thanks for the budget numbers. One thing to consider when looking at a budget is that everyone does it differently. My food/beer costs per weekend (including my mother feeding everyone donuts for breakfast and serving lunch both days) is often 10x the number you list. I only get 2-3 weekends from a set of brake pads/rotors and I have hub expense to include for each weekend (I mean I should - I often ignore the bearings because I'm lazy).

 

[tim240z]

I can say the 180+ tire is a lot safer and predictable then some of the take offs we've run in the past.

 

[Greg Amy]

Slapped together a quick spreadsheet to get a handle on costs for a race weekend.

You're expecting this, so allow me take umbrage. I run Hoosier R6s for a minimum of 10-12 cycles each. And I get them free*.

For example, here's my tire logs for the first pair of tires from 2013:
- Heat cycled on rear, NJMP qually
- NJMP race front
- LRP front, 4 quallies then flipped [GA: flipped on rim to even out wear inside-to-out]
- LRP front, 4 races
- WGI, 1 qually front
- Scrapped by Hoosier East, WGI, discernible tread remaining**

Note these two are the only tires I scrapped in 2013; I either have the remaining ones mounted on wheels or have new ones in baggies, ready for 2014. In 2013 I did two Majors ("double National") weekends, one double Regional weekend*** (Lime Rock Park), the the Runoffs at Road America (three 1/2hour quallies and a 45-minute race).

Or, the last set I had left over from 2012:
- NHMS, 3 test sessions front
- NHMS, 2 qually front
- Flip on rims
- NHMS 45 min National, rear
- SPR, 25 min qually front
- SPR, 1/4 race rear (DNF, engine)
- LRP, warm up and National race, front
- WGI Natl qually, rear
- WGI Natl race, rear
- POC 2 qually sessions front
- Scrapped by Hoosier East, pretty damn worn out. No cords showing.

Point being, they're not as fragile as many seem to think.

The fast SM guys are running sticker Hoes each qual session.

And the pointy-end Street Tire Revolution (c 2014, Kakashi Racing) guys are going to shave them down to within an inch of their lives and replace them on a regular basis, possibly after each qual session.

Racing is expensive. Everyone running street tires isn't going to change that.

Amen.

- GA, a full quarter-century into his quest for that magic bullet that makes racing cheap...

* Limited number per year, but I'm also eligible for the tire contingency based on results.

** Only reason I scrapped these was because I wanted new ones for the front, but I had run out of wheels to cycle tires to. Embarrassment of riches...

*** I also raced the double Regional at Pocono, but that weekend was a combination of rain tires and 2012 Ho-Ho leftovers. I also used 2012 leftovers on the rear at LRP.

 

[lawtonglenn]

Extrapolating Ron's numbers for someone who does more racing,
The limit is actually 70% as the R tire cost in Ron's model is 30% of the total,
so as the S tire value goes to zero, that's the best that can be accomplished

.

however, Ron's 12 cycles are not how we use our tires, and we certainly
don't do all the machinations Greg does. We run our race tires for heat cycle 1-6
and then they become our qualifying tires for heat cycle 7-12
so, instead of in Ron's example where the R tires are 30% of the total,
in our usage it is 38%

the problem is, the guys I am racing against (Farbman, Capizi, et al) are
on stickers EVERY WEEKEND... so they are getting 2 race heat cycles per set,
and if we keep the other numbers the same, their R tires are 48% of the total cost.

all that being said .... I would love to run on S tires ... but I would
only do so if everyone was running on S tires ... our fields are small enough
now that having S sub-classes and R sub-classes is of no interest to me ... I crave
the competition at the front of the pack where the prep, the equipment, and
the racing is most challenging

so, if I can beat them (I sometimes do) by spending half what they do (tires
are only a part of the cost differential) I have succeeded. If these semi-pro
teams don't show up, then my goal is to push the track record ... all of which
points to R tires ... and so with a rule change to 180+ everyone would be on S
tires, which would be great, but we'd also have to have a separate track record
list for Street tires

.

 

[downingracing]

I can say the 180+ tire is a lot safer and predictable then some of the take offs we've run in the past.

Yes - new 180 to unknown condition/used race rubber... Compare new to new and get back with me.

 

[Chip42]

guys - this is ALL about midpack guys in large fields. no one is suggesting from my camp that the streets are as fast or capable as Rs. if they do they are looneytunes.

shaving etc... only becomes defacto norm when you require people to run these things. leave it optional, and the guys who choose to run them will do so for the cost savings, not a lower bar trophy. you make sure of that with culture (see IT7 guys in NE) and NOT having a recognized championship for IT ST.

cost savings of streets vs takeoff Rs (all that some of us can afford to run on a regular basis) is actually negative, you'll pay more for a set of new streets than for the equivalent number of races' worth of used Rs in many cases. but the increased consistency and reliability of the streets makes that cost worthwhile, IMHO.

Ron's analysis is pretty good - but a lot of the tire wear is car and track dependent, so not apples to other's apples. either way, streets offer a way for the guy who ISN'T running at the pointy end for whatever reason to run on the cheap. they are already legal, so there's no reason NOT to run them in that case. all my effort is doing is trying to get a small group in a large field to agree to keep the relative bar level by ALL switching over and identifying themselves as having done so. (keep in mind we run 12-20 ITB cars on a regular basis in CFR, and similar numbers of A and S with R at ~5-10.) this is not a trend setting initiative. we aren't trying to show the rest of you the light. it's really more of a way to afford more seat time to develop skills or just enjoy Door to Door racing at the level one such racer can afford.

as I said before - I really hope these tires DO NOT become the norm, at least in club racing. the norm in that experience effort they talked about last year? sure, fine, whatever.

 

[Greg Amy]

leave it optional, and the guys who choose to run them will do so for the cost savings, not a lower bar trophy.

Disagree with you, Polyanna. Nature - and racers - abhor a vacuum. If someone sees an opportunity to fill that void - e.g., a lower-bar trophy - they will take advantage of it.

To argue otherwise is to argue that no one will get serious about "lower cost" classes/categories...like Improved Touring. And yet, the whole point of the discussion at hand is about controlling cost escalations within that very same category...

- GA

Edit: offered differently, if you are successful you will eventually be a victim of your own success. The only way you can "win" is to "lose".

If I were still in Improved Touring - and there's always possibility that could happen - and I found that ITS-T was only a couple guys having fun, I'd stick with Ho-Hos in ITS where the competition was. However, if I found that ITS-T was a popular viable class, with a lot of competitors, then I'd get a set of 200TTW tires and go play. However, I'd also have them shaved to increase performance, and I'd cycle through them a lot faster -- intentionally. And I'd be faster.

So why don't the NE IT7 guys do it? 'Cause as of right now, it's a handful of friends that know each other, all out to have fun. For the most part, except within themselves they've been pretty much ignored. But that's changing. The very moment that Dan starts getting successful in his whoring of the class, you can expect to see someone coming in with max-performance-tuned Nitto tires, swapping them out regularly. And top prep, no exhausts falling off, running out of fuel, or tires pressures not being set correctly (). And everyone starts to get all butt-hurt again...

 

[gran racing]

The fast SM guys are running sticker Hoes each qual session. The HOHOs slow down over 1 sec per lap @ Sebring and PBIR @ the 4 th HC.

Oh come on. I like the street tire thing but some of this is just rubbish. First off, just because many of the SM drivers with $50,000 or uber expensive cars are doing it doesn't mean it's right.

They slow down over 1 second per lap? So in a 15 lap race, they're 15 seconds a lap slower? I know, they should be using street tires and win!

My racing budget for a 6 race weekend event now would be much more since I have a race engine, use better fluids, change items more frequently, and so forth. But when I was new to racing, did it just for fun and didn't care about winning, I was able to get 6 race weekends and 4 HPDEs for around $3,365 total. I had no money so putting more in wasn't even an option. Too big of a list and explaination, but the link is below. (And before people nit pick it, it's the sampe summary of primary costs.

http://www.goaheadtakethewheel.com/club-racing/annual-racing-budget-sample.php

Now... I use the ho-hos for around 6 cycles in "important races". Sometimes I'll do the proper heat cycle during the qual session. If during the two hot laps I haven't gotten it done, I make the decision out on track whether or not to pit. Usually I get it done and plan well.

Then I use them for track days where I get many more sessions.

 

[ajmr2]

Lookin good, Chip and informative discussion. You'd better get those eyebrows back on. That's a second/lap!

 

[georgethefierce]

So why don't the NE IT7 guys do it? 'Cause as of right now, it's a handful of friends that know each other, all out to have fun. For the most part, except within themselves they've been pretty much ignored. But that's changing. The very moment that Dan starts getting successful in his whoring of the class, you can expect to see someone coming in with max-performance-tuned Nitto tires, swapping them out regularly. And top prep, no exhausts falling off, running out of fuel, or tires pressures not being set correctly (). And everyone starts to get all butt-hurt again...

I agree with this 100% let's just hope it lasts a little while

 

[Ron Earp]

You're expecting this, so allow me take umbrage.

Yes I did. I put it up there to incite discussion. Hopefully the pedantic here will realize its purpose and not contrast their own programs in every post.
If I were to do that I'd find that my racing program tires are a pretty minor percentage of my race weekend if I were to factor in all my development costs as I continually refine my car and driving.

Cheap tires ain't gonna make racing cheap.

 

[Greg Amy]

I agree with this 100% let's just hope it lasts a little while

...says the Bringer of Doom...

 

[Greg Amy]

Hopefully the pedantic here will...not contrast their own programs in every post.

I wasn't being pedantic; I was simply ensuring that the minor details were accurate.

By the way, I commend you for your refreshingly proper use of "continually" versus "continuously".

- GA

 

[Ron Earp]

By the way, I commend you for your refreshingly proper use of "continually" versus "continuously".

- GA

Hmmm, wasn't even aware I pulled that off.

I was trying to head the breakdown posts off at the pass. I figured it was just a matter of minutes before Lizard broke down a LeChump weekend and told us how fast Chumpers were, and that teams made money racing crap cans because they ran street tires.