Street tires in IT? My Review

Claiming that there will be cost savings from running street tires is the equivalent of saying that when you squeeze a balloon, you've decreased the volume.

Great...
I'll use that money for the hot snot final drive for my vehicle or finally pull the trigger on a real ECU or, if I have the ECU, I'll get the custom exhaust or do more Friday test days before the event because I always drive better if I do them or I'll freshen the motor more often or I'll get the blingy shocks or....

And if you are serious about racing you will do that too. And if you aren't serious about the racing and are a mid-pack driver... then just run the old freaking race rubber and instead of having a dice for 8th in a 16-car field, have the same fun having a dice for 13th in a 16-car field.

There are plenty of ways to piss away money on a racing car. Eliminate one and you just push the money elsewhere.
 
Greg Amy said:
Disagree with you, Polyanna. Nature - and racers - abhor a vacuum. If someone sees an opportunity to fill that void - e.g., a lower-bar trophy - they will take advantage of it.

To argue otherwise is to argue that no one will get serious about "lower cost" classes/categories...like Improved Touring. And yet, the whole point of the discussion at hand is about controlling cost escalations within that very same category...

- GA

Edit: offered differently, if you are successful you will eventually be a victim of your own success. The only way you can "win" is to "lose".
Click to expand...

exactly - we DON'T have a real championship, no trophies, and DON'T care about winning - that's why this group would run these tires. I know everyone is reading that saying "gah! why bother if you can't win??" but in any large field you have a pretty large number of entries for whom a win is beating the guy they run with. we've all been there before, some people are happy in that place. that's the market. show up on shaved tires and run away with the STC win. OK, have fun with that - we just don't care about winning that much and that's really outside the scope of what we'll all have agreed to do, in the name of fun. absolutely people care about low cost classes - popularity will always raise the bar and that higher bar always comes with more cost. this is just a way to group the midpack guys who want to save some coin running for the same non-win we're running for now.

for me, this is as much about the reduced cost of track time as anything else. track days are great, but nothing is like wheel to wheel racing and doing it in my racecar against my peers and being able to judge myself against them real time, rather than on separate days. I'm NOT going to win, not any time soon. I'm not that good and I don't have enough awesomesauce in my car, yet. I need more seat time seat time seat time. this makes that easier for me, and for the other reasons I've mentioned its attractive to some others. in the mean time, as JJ points out, I'll take the cash I'm saving (that amount I'm not putting back into additional entries and associated costs) and put it into the car. my intent long term is to get BACK onto R comps and run with the big boys.

if NO ONE joins me, I'll delight in passing them on streets. double win for me.

someone comes in and takes it all seriously, I'm in the same place I am right now, and still enjoying the lower cost.

I can't loose because I expect to not win. so yeah - I win, in a sense.
 
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Chip42 said:
exactly - we DON'T have a real championship, no trophies, and DON'T care about winning - that's why this group would run these tires. I know everyone is reading that saying "gah! why bother if you can't win??" but in any large field you have a pretty large number of entries for whom a win is beating the guy they run with. we've all been there before, some people are happy in that place. that's the market. show up on shaved tires and run away with the win. OK, have fun with that - we just don't care.
Click to expand...

Then why create these rules at all? If your goal is to do well against people in your 'same' league, then without doing a damn thing you can...

1. Run street tires and have your race with less-prepped, less-skilled cars running competition tires.
2. Run old competition tires and have your race with less-prepped, less-skilled cars running competition tires

:shrug:
 
Soooooo....why not just take the IT car and run it in LeChump?

Longer races, Check.
Running "ad hoc class within a class", Check.
Street tires, Check.
Cost less, Check.
Lots of people to race with, Check.
 
Well, why not? Is it because LeChump is all ruled up now and we want to run "grassroots" stuff?

I don't understand the goal here, and I think the reason is that the multitude of street tire proponents do not all share a common goal.

Three months ago it was some street tire folks wanting an SCCA class. Now it is street tire people wanting to form an ad hoc group that "is just visible enough so people know it exists and everybody will come race with them, but low-key to not attract attention of the powers that be". If "everybody" comes to race with them then by definition "the powers that be" are going to make changes in the rules and we're right back to square one.
 
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Which is why I asked my question.

My "position" on this stuff depend a whole lot on what the goal is.

And I see many goals, ranging from the reasonable (Chip and Dave) to what I consider unreasonable.
 
jjjanos said:
Claiming that there will be cost savings from running street tires is the equivalent of saying that when you squeeze a balloon, you've decreased the volume.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but if I let the air out of your tires, I might beat you someday! Doesn't matter which tires you use.

:024:
 
gran racing said:
...They slow down over 1 second per lap? So in a 15 lap race, they're 15 seconds a lap slower?...
Click to expand...


I'm pretty sure he meant that after the 4th HeatCycle, the tires yield lap times
1 second slower then during the first four HCs. So, for example if you were running
1:01's at Lime Rock for the first 4 HCs, then the next few HCs would yield 1:02's

Our experience is close to that... maybe 0.8 sec at 4 HCs, 1.5 sec at 6 HC on a
61-75 sec/lap track like LRP or NHMS

.
 
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a win is beating the guy they run with.
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One of my favorite "wins" was beating a friend in maybe 16th place? Ironically he was driving an MR2. Both of our cars low prepped. Actually, that was better than some of my actual race wins.

Ron, this would be the goal if I were to do it (and truthly said, I won't be at least next year): We often race with drivers who on any given race weekend, put down about the same general times and finish pretty close. If all could agree to spend less on tires, that wouldn't impact the finishing positions. Less money directed towards tires.

One certainly can argue that more money would be spent on the race cars. Maybe, maybe not. Don't know for sure. In some respects I'd feel better getting a blue printed transmission that will last several seasons than a couple sets of tires. Each to their own and it's entirely options.
 
Ron Earp said:
Soooooo....why not just take the IT car and run it in LeChump?

Longer races, Check.
Running "ad hoc class within a class", Check.
Street tires, Check.
Cost less, Check.
Lots of people to race with, Check.
Click to expand...

because something fun. I have no desire to run my car in LeChump. nothing against them, but that's not where I want to run my ITB car.

yeah, we'll have a "winner." we like the idea that we can have a winner, and beat each other. but as soon as people start doing everything to become the winner, it gets ruined. so keep it low key and keep it for fun. Still IT cars, still running IT races, just at the prep levels we are happy with and the budget and skills we have available, which we realize is not front-runner level. hell, I'm probably the most "I wanna go faster" person in the group - for me it's about seat time at a lower cost IN my run group. when my car and I get better enough, I'll "graduate" out of my own idea, bolt on some purple crack, and shoot to run at the front.

why is this so controversial?
 
Chip42 said:
why is this so controversial?
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Ya I don't get it. Why do people care? I think it is great that a few guys/gals may get together and race each other for fun. Who cares if we agree on the cost savings or the reasons they are doing it. I don't think it affects any of us. IF someone has a different idea then share that but why all the negativity?

PS: my idea is different which is to double dip in ST and run with some friends on street tires for the entire season. Basic concept is that the only extra cost is entry fees and a little maint.


Flying lizard... have you raced on street tires and r comps? I am guessing your going by word of mouth. I have and they are not as safe when racing on the edge at the limit. I personally have done it in back to back sessions. Street tires get hot and greasy faster and have an edge. They can easily be brought back but you simply cannot drive as hard as long as you can with r comps. And seriously 30 min and the tires at cord? Really? I also don't believe the 1 second lap time loss after 4 heat cycles. Maybe I am in denial but I just can't grasp that.

Stephen
 
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lawtonglenn said:
I'm pretty sure he meant that after the 4th HeatCycle, the tires yield lap times
1 second slower then during the first four HCs. So, for example if you were running
1:01's at Lime Rock for the first 4 HCs, then the next few HCs would yield 1:02's

Our experience is close to that... maybe 0.8 sec at 4 HCs, 1.5 sec at 6 HC on a
61-75 sec/lap track like LRP or NHMS

.
Click to expand...

What about nhms?
 
Saw this on another forum discussing Street Tires... Lol

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCnHczLfXQc[/ame]


People are talking goals, IMO we should never change the rules to not allow "R" comp tires... People running enduros, those just getting into this and people racing on a budget should consider street tires though.

  • If you running enduros it will save part of your wallet and your car and you can still be competitive with the benefits that do exist with racing on a street tire... I think we have proven that.
  • If you are just starting spend the extra money you save making yourself and your car faster, then invest in tires for qualifying and race day. Use the street tires for track days and practice sessions learning a new track and testing the car.
  • People racing on a budget, use the tires to save money and enter more races, you won't be last because of the tires.

In my perfect world SCCA would adopt some sort of competition benefit for running on street tires just to help reduce the costs and encourage more participation to the growing population that can't quite afford to race regularly.

Raymond "just my opinion, hope you enjoyed the video flash back!" Blethen
 
StephenB said:
Ya I don't get it. Why do people care?
....why all the negativity?
Click to expand...
I think that's the thing: you really don't get it, with "it" being what an attractive idea this actually is at its core. And, and a result, how popular the idea could be. Which, as a result, will eventually feed upon itself and loop back to exactly that same "problems" this whole idea is trying to address.

It's not "negativity", my friend; negativity would be saying "this is a stupid idea". MNo one has even implied that where I can see. At worst, call it "reality" or cynicism" where age and experience is trying to point out the realities of what's happened in the past and the probable end game of what you're doing.

Good luck, have fun. I hope you win. Errrr...lose. Errrr...well, you know what I mean. - GA
 
Greg Amy said:
...negativity would be saying "this is a stupid idea". No one has even implied that...
Click to expand...

that's because it is not a stupid idea :)

all the discussion (and controversy) is about
  • comparing and contrasting various goals people are trying to achieve
  • comparing and contrasting various actions to take to achieve the goals
  • discussing how each possible action addresses, or fails to address, each goal
  • trying to predict the unintended consequences of each action
  • trying to build consensus
In my life experience, problems that have difficulty in achieving consensus
on what the actual goal is have little chance of achieving consensus on the
action plan (google "Affordable Care Act")

The trick is to recognize that there will be a variety of goals that people
are trying to achieve, and craft an action plan that adequately satisfies
each camp, maybe not fully, but enough to allow each camp to buy in to the
compromise. In order to convince each camp, it is necessary to flush out and
address any unintended consequences (eg "people will shave the street tires") so
people feel comfortable with what will actually happen. In a situation as
complex as this, I see this discussion as iterative, dynamic, and interesting.

That being said, I will re-state my goals, which will match some of yours, and not
match others. But know that I will evaluate each potential action plan through the
screen of "how well does that action (and it's unintended consequences) meet MY goals?"
  1. I want to race as fast as I can within the ruleset
  2. I want to race on a level playing field
  3. I want to strive to win, continually improving myself and my equipment
  4. I would love to save money

For me, an informal agreement on street tires satisfies only #4, while an
official rule change satisfies #1,2,3,4


.
 
Glenn, that's a good post, very clear, well said, and at the same time why I'm dubious (not negative, just dubious) of the whole ting.

I think Greg is 1000 percent correct that in the end, the move to street tires won't save money. People will adopt practices and habits that significantly minimize the savings. And Ron is even "corrector" in saying that if "making club racing cheaper" is the goal of all this, then this approach, Street Tires, really isn't going to make a big enough difference to attract more folks, etc.

Which leads me to why I asked what the goal is. Because if the whole point is to save money, making a rule change to accomplish 1, 2, 3 and 4 above fails because, well, 4 ain't happening.

I've got a set of Rivals. I am going to try them out. But more and more at its core I just don't see the advantage of this. Yes, I like my HoHos and there is some bias there BUT I also think making changes to the rules to achieve a goal that simply can't be achieved with that change isn't a good idea. And more and more, what I think the end game is here is in fact a rule change, whether that is openly expressed or not.
 
indeed Jeff, I agree with most of your sentiments

I think one point I was trying to make is that my goals 1,2,3,4 are not necessarily
your goals, or his goals, or her goals. Some people will have goals in a
different order 4,1,2,3 ... some will have altogether different goals.

Your point that I disagree with is about saving money. While I do agree that
it won't save alot, especially for people at the front, what I believe is that
for people midpack, in the back, or with a different goal ordering (4,1,2,3) ...
it may save enough to get them to race one more race, and for people thinking
about joining, it may be perceived as enough of a potential saving to get them
over the edge.

But for me, everyone I'm racing against has to be on street tires or I won't do it...

.
 
105 $ tires that last 12hrs cost less than 181$ tire that last 2hrs. Hoe can anyone say that the cost will not be less. ?.
The pointy end will have the same faces but they can eat better( and more importantly, drink better) if they race on 180 Tires.


Raymond; I have run my 99 SM on the following tires. SM6 stickers,Dunlop Star Z1 (2012, not the 2013 version), Dunlop DZ101, 300TW. 13in Goodyear slicks.
We beat this car @ Sebring about 300miles per track day/weekend average of 1 a month, plus races . 101% on the Star Specs . "Flick and mat" is SO. Tons of fun. Still working on very deep trail brake. The 180 tires keep you on the edge for sure.

The turn in speed @ T1 Sebring is about 90-91 Hoes, apex at 91-2, shows 1.3ish G
180 Turn in is 85, apex @ 84, Shows 1.11G( the fall off at apex may be due to the fast heat build and slight loss of grip due to the agressive toss @ turn in. The max G is shown just post turn in as the tire stops sliding.

Take off Slicks , 88,apex 90. 1.25ish G
The G Load is on concrete , the pavement G load is about .1-.2 less for all turns.
Al data shows plus 3-4mph at the track out bump.

The Early (freeish to me) Falkens would grease up and go away withthe fast drivers. The new Dunlops Z2 wil also.
The SM6 can run about 3hrs @ Sebring @ 98%, (very low slip angles.)2:43 lap times)
If you flick the car into T 1< ( my favorite thing to do in the world) the SM6 tires will last about 2hrs. @ 241lap times)
The 300 TW DZ101 will run all day @ 101% . Some tread chumking will happen on full tread tires , bigger car.
The SM6 @ PBIR was good for 40min and would not make the sat race of 20min. My car/driver was about the norm. fresh skins for the race. 3 laps test and target pressure set, swap sides, race 40 min, throw away.
PBIR is very hard on tires. Not just the Hoes.
My car on Goodyears also needed 2 LS tires for Sun am.

The VW Golf runs HP and Chump and rental track rat,. It has never run on Hoes. Goodyear slicks and 180 tires.
The Chumpcar, Nissan 300ZX VG30 runs only Chump, 265/40/17 Stars.
The faster,( Michaels car)VW Scirocco runs only SCCA HP, no Hoes.
The Chumpcar turbojetta 190ishhp , 260Tq, runs on all of the tires except Hoes.
So yeah I have pretty good data on tire wear. 20hrs on the 180 is norm, @ 98%. 10hrs @ full speed with rotation.

After running the way back SCCA 12 hrs and 24hr races with 24plus tires, it was very hard for me to go a a 14hr race with less than 10 tires. 6 tires per 14hrs is very doable . I still take 10 or more tires tho.
 
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