The Current State of Improved Touring

Ron,

It is entry in that class per event, averaged. Repeated cars are counted each time they enter.

In an ideal world where there are 25 ITB car averages, 10 events would total 250 entries, while 12 would total 300, even if it's the same 25 cars in each event. Now, if you're concerned that each of those 25 racers would only run 10 events a year for a total of 250 entries over 12 events, averaging 21 cars, I understand. However, I think many other factors have a greater effect, and unless we really item-analyze attendance patterns, I think the variances will null out enough to give us some kind of data to work conclusions from.

By other factors, ponder this-
There is a distinct decrease in ITS entries over the 04-08 time period. At the same time, ITR entries go up (since it wasn't even a class in 04). Is the ITS drop due to movement to ITR, due to the BMW guys getting pissed and leaving? How about economic factors? Gas prices? Bovine flatulence? In those same years, ITA goes up, then down, and ITB and ITC drop significantly. Spec Miata also is ramping up at the same time, the Great Realignment happened, the ECU rule changed, AND, the Colts won the Superbowl (contributed by a coworker looking over my shoulder- I have NO CLUE about football).

I'd just like to see the numbers we have at this point. I do agree with you Ron- I'd like to see raw numbers, not just averages. I just don't think we're going to be able to draw any real conclusions from them, given the number of variables involved.
 
Ron Earp said:
What are those numbers, average cars per event for each year? If that is the average number of cars per event each year then it does not tell you the total number of entries per class.

ITS entries could remain constant from 2004 to 2008. And, if the number of sanctioned races increased as Tom pointed out, then the average cars per race would decrease which some would view as a decline of interest in the category. However that would be an improper conclusion.
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Ron - If you are gathering all the data PM me your email and I can send you the backup files that I have.
 
240zdave said:
Because big ass recession.
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Peronally - I don't think its that simple of an answer. Even if you were able to somehow normalize for the recession I think the entries are down.

Again my opinion, but I think as National has pulled their heads out of their rear and are making Nationals easier to participate in, licenses getting moved to one, The Runoff changes, etc people are moving to National racing.

I also think that BIG money ruled IT in the mid 2000's. Those massive build costs put IT cars in the same ballpark as many National groups and people migrated.

Just my .02
 
Ron Earp said:
... I feel that ST is on the rise and believe other racers think the same. But to what extent is ST(L) actually waxing if non-ST cars are eliminated from the car count? Remove the RX cars and the ITA/SM Miatas, then perform a count of ST cars that remain. It'll be interesting to see how that shakes out. ...
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SM crossover ITA cars should be counted as IT entries, and SM/ITA crossover cars to STL should as well. This isn't about orthodoxy. It's about entries and whatever it takes to get them is probably fair game.

Note that I've changed my opinion on this in the past few months, mostly because I've shifted my focus to the less-prepared end of any grid as the growth opportunity, rather than the pointy end.

K
 
Tom Lyttle's post is an excellent one.

Look at one of his key points. IT entries have INCREASED 20% but the number of races has increased 50% in the SARRC. So the per race average is down but overall numbers up.

Talk about perception trumping reality.

Jeremy, I'm collecting the numbers. Send what you have to me if you could. THanks man.
 
Better re-read that Jeff. Total IT numbers are DOWN by 20%. Things aren't as bad as perceived, but they aren't THAT good.
 
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Jeremy Billiel;352947 said:
Again my opinion, but I think as National has pulled their heads out of their rear and are making Nationals easier to participate in, licenses getting moved to one, The Runoff changes, etc people are moving to National racing.
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Send the numbers over to Jeff, I planned to look through what he collected.

National growing - perception? Or reality?

I posted earlier I felt ST was growing. But that might not be the case. Remove IT crossovers from the car counts; SM, ITA Miatas, RX7s, RX8s, and then what do you have?

And what Tom pointed to earlier with more SARRCs, but fewer average racers per race class, well, that's most likely a natural consequence if the number of racer entries remains the same or even increases slightly. There are a hell of a lot of races in the SEDiv.
 
Again, I just don't think it's legit to remove "crossover" cars from any class counts. Would we not count an old-school, unprepared, trunk-kit-and-a-bolt-in-cage NEON in ITA...?

K
 
Maybe we should if there were any of them around. But I'm willing to bet of we don't factor in the trunk kit Neons in ITA we won't induce much error in our measurement. Ain't a whole lot of crossover to IT SCCA, at least in practice.

On the other hand, should we count SM and ITA Miatas in STL because someone decided to take advantage of a National Weekend? Can't blame them for adding a race weekend, but those cars aren't exactly the norm for the <2L FWD class. And they will definitely induce a much larger statistical anomaly in STL national numbers when compared the "ITA trunk kit Neons" in regional ITA participation.
 
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With online registrations like motorsportsreg you might want to consider adding a field for log book number.

With that info you would see that although I raced in three classes this year, ITB, ITA & STL, there were only two cars involved.

Also, the number of licensed drivers needs to count into this well.
 
The SCCA racer numbers have not increased. The racers that we have, have moved to the Miata. Better car with better racing. The 1.6 cars can be bought for 6K and raced against similar cars. When you get done with it, it is still worth 6K. They eat very little at midpack levels.
The It class offer a lot fewer cars in class and more maintenance, while just a bigger hole to poor cash.
Any younger guys that rent or build cars are going SM.
The market has moved away from the old IT cars. ITB and C cars can be bought for sub 2K. Great value, fair racing. Many older cheaper IT cars have moved to prod or Chumpemons.
 
Matt93SE said:
In the last 4 years here in SW-Div, I have only seen one ITS car entered, and that's a guy that moved to Dallas from Sebring with an ITS Mustang build already underway. (FLATKITTY on here when he posts)

There's another ITS 240Z that's come out a couple times, but only because it was in ITS trim when it was purchased by the current owner and the current round of required maintenance is going to push it out of ITS-trim because OEM parts are becoming unavailable and there are cheaper & stronger go-fast parts available.

ITA and ITB have regular entries, but the vast majority of ITA are again the SM double-dippers. I think 2 or 3 cars are real ITA cars and the rest are SM.

8 or 10 years ago, IT was quite strong in the area, but they have essentially disappeared. It's not just the drivers moving to different classes, but drivers leaving SCCA altogether. I knew several of the ITS guys that raced here in the past and they had to sell/retire due to personal reasons (health, lack of money to race, etc), but they're still leaving.

Edit.. My first edit was intended to mention that we have a pretty significant SRF and SM following around here- each gets their own run group and we routinely have 30+ of each class at each national-level race. calling them a national-level since I don't know WTF they're calling them yet this year.
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Yeah, IT looks dead West of the Mississippi river. Many of the drivers I know of that used to race IT has gone NASA/VARA/Lemons or quit to do other things.
 
Miatas have hurt IT. I bought one since it was proven it can run at the front, it was something different for me (RWD), and parts can easily be found. For the record, I do not think it's an overdog by anymeans. I just think it's one of several good ITA choices.

What really made me to make the decision isn't just me, but the shop that I use have really focused on Miatas (Kessler Engineering). When I was doing my ITB Honda Prelude focus, he'd study the factory manual, need to figure out ways to improve it, we'd need to hunt for parts, and so forth. His shop focusing on Miata? Oh, those parts I needed when he inspected the car and I had an event the next day? No worries, got it. Development efforts? Now it will be used on many engines and cars; not just one random ITx car.

While I see shops still doing occassional other IT cars, it seems like Miata is the easy button. FlatOut, Advanced Autosports, Kessler, Savings Auto, OPM, and the list goes on.

What this also leads to, I think, is some people who like driving something everyone else isn't gravitating towards other categories. Or deciding to try the Koolaid and go into SM.

If I think about where the greatest competition is, the top drivers who also have strong funding to run at the front, it's SM.
 
A ton of ITC cars came to the Central Ohio area and call M-O home. A bunch more are sitting in barns cuz someone didn't feel like rebuilding a blown Pinto/Fiesta/pick any other crapbox engine. If someone finds me an 83-87 Crx/Civic caged shell w/logbook, there will be one more.
 
OUBob said:
A ton of ITC cars came to the Central Ohio area and call M-O home. A bunch more are sitting in barns cuz someone didn't feel like rebuilding a blown Pinto/Fiesta/pick any other crapbox engine. If someone finds me an 83-87 Crx/Civic caged shell w/logbook, there will be one more.
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Have one. Make an offer.
 
OUBob said:
A ton of ITC cars came to the Central Ohio area and call M-O home. A bunch more are sitting in barns cuz someone didn't feel like rebuilding a blown Pinto/Fiesta/pick any other crapbox engine. If someone finds me an 83-87 Crx/Civic caged shell w/logbook, there will be one more.
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I've got one in a barn in Xenia, OH. I'd be thrilled if we can get one more car going.
 
Ed, Jim, maybe you should send me details of your chassis. This isn't gonna be a project I have done in 3 months, but it would be nice to have a place to store parts...
 
gran racing said:
Miatas have hurt IT.
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BUT.. Did they hurt IT as a cost of helping the club as a whole? Gotta think about all of the contingency Mazda pays and the number of these little cars running around.
It's a small, light, agile, reliable car. Perfect for cheap racing. They run in T, IT, ST, GT, and Prod.

Don't shoot the messenger, but what was bad for one class of 25 yr old cars certainly has helped the club as a whole. Times change and the car-to-have changes with it.
 
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