The new ITA class

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Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Anyway, the point was, why not get a general feel for the overall thoughts of adding a new class? Collect people's feedback, and if there's an interst, use that feedback to help craft a plan.
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Because all it would do is raise more questions. You would get responses similar to that of the PCA question.

"I don't want comp adjustments in IT". Well guess what? PCA's are so far from traditional CA's that we don't know if that is a yes or no for a specific idea. It seems like a no, but in our experience with this exact issue, people like PCA's but would hate prod-style CA's.

If you just ask if you think adding an IT class is a good idea, many questions pop up. The best way to do it is to explain the plan and then have people make couter-proposals, agree or disagree.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
PCA's are so far from traditional CA's that we don't know if that is a yes or no for a specific idea. It seems like a no, but in our experience with this exact issue, people like PCA's but would hate prod-style CA's.
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How do you figure Andy? You're talking reclassification, weight, and chokes/restrictors. I can't remember the last time I saw a comp. adj. to a Prod car that was something other than one of those three.


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Bill,

The PCA proposal that hit Fast Track in it's original form, had nothing to do with anything other than reclassing and weights.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I can't remember the last time I saw a comp. adj. to a Prod car that was something other than one of those three.</font>
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I don't know what you have seen lately but here are the Prod rules: "Requests for alteration, modification, and/or substitution of any {emphasis mine} specification or component shall be submitted to the club for approval. The approval process will include but not be limited to, an analysis of cost, availibility, perfomance impact, rule enforcability and competitor input".

Does that sound to you like our intent on PCA's? If it does, you need to review the documentation.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com


[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited April 12, 2004).]
 
Andy,

IIRC, the PCA proposal was first published in the 9/03 issue of FasTrack. That proposal talks about reclassification, weight adjustment, and intake restrictors. If it was in an earlier FasTrack, I must have missed it.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
That particular wording IIRC, was 'in extreme and/or rare cases'...that was also a piece that was added by the CRB, not the ITAC.

Regardless, PCA are not INTENDED to be Prod-style CA's. You have to take my word for it.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Andy, Bill

I thought I posted a lot... what do you kids do all day??? Work??? or play on Improved Touring... wait don't answer that
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LOL this is good stuff
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I like a good debate!!!

Raymond "watching, trying to decide if I should stay here or go work on my car" Blethen

PS: That/this was a joke to keep you two smiling
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Raymond, they both work 3rd shift.
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& we wonder why employers get testy about people using the internet during work hours.

Retired
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David
 
I for one hope they make at least one more class in IT. I see some good Iron in T2 that will need a place to go. So why not ITR like I have seen suggested. I see some people building some nice newer stuff (hmmmm) that will not fit in ITS after it is ten years old but sure would look good on the track in Improved Touring.

Like one man said...."What is the cost of another trophy?"

Rick Thompson
IT? .... LOL
 
Stuck at home today w/ brochitis and a sinus infection!!



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
I'm sick too. I was looking to start another fight with Bill for something to do, but we seem to agree on the need for new classes.
 
Some will not like what I am gonna say but I wanna say it.......

making another class is a horrible idea. Look what it has done to solo II. 25 or more classes at any regional event with maybe more than one other person in your class if your lucky. Only a few classes have a decent field.

If you want to have a competitive car in the class read the rules, see whats fast, do some research and build or buy that car. If you get 4-5 competitive years out of one car your doing good. Racing is expensive. I hate it, Wish is wasnt, if it wasnt I would be racing more, but you cant build or buy a car and expect the rules to move to you, nor can you run one car and expect that car to be "the car to have" the whole time you have it. There are always gonna be some cars faster than others, thats just how it is. The majority of the time I have raced, I have never had "the car to have" maybe one day I will.

Do some cars need to be moved? Yes. Are some cars moved that should not have been? Yes. I think when we do move cars they need to be moved on a one by one basis very very carefully. Or instead of pissing a few off, youll piss of many. There is no way to make everyone happy.

This is all just my opinion, but what do I know I havent raced in almost a year.

Derek
 
Derek-

I like what you say IF this was national racing, but it isn't it is REGIONAL ENTRY LEVEL racing... This is the class people get into to see whats its all about. Yes it does happen to be the "best" (IMO) racing in SCCA besids the speed cars, but isn't it an intro to that as well???

I Still can't stand the idea that racing HAS to be soo expensive as people on these forums make it... It doesn't and or shouldn't if you have talent and ambition to do some of your own work. If moving ITA cars to ITB means that the cost to finish in the top 3 is higher than $5,000-$7,000 then it is a HUGE mistake. I will take that with me as far as I ever go.

PLEASE REMEMBER THIS IS AN INTRO CLASS AND NEEDS TO STAY AFORDABLE. If more classes need to be added to keep that what is the problem, instead of having the same 4-8 people win all the time (one or two contenders in each class) we will have 5-10. Seems to me like more racing???

Raymond
 
Originally posted by cherokee:
WOW...spend the weekend under a car and look at everything that happend.
Let me clearify a few things on the way I think.

By Political I mean that this (RX-7 deal) is only under consideration because there are so many of them.

I am all for change I think it is needed, but to slap a few pounds and skinny wheels on the 7 and think it will not run away from 90% of the ITB cars out there...I think it will happen.

How do you explain that some RX7's do very well, this happens all over the country, and at different "type" tracks. I think that there are very different levels of prep on these cars, some are done to the 9's others are not, more so on this car because of the number of them out there.

I realy think that the IT classes need a re-shuffle. having cars from 196x running with cars from 200x is very very hard, and the day is coming that we are just going to have to let go of the old cars. (this said by a guy building a "new" 1972 race car). That said you pick the car for several reasons. My heart picked my car, if it does well GREAT if not, just let me run I'll still have fun, thats what it is all about.

Someone asked so here is my info:
Greg Mathews
1985 ITA MR2
1972 ITB Opel GT (almost there)
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Thanks for clarifying that Greg, although I agree some cars will in the near future go away there are too many sevens that make up a huge proportion of our clubs economy, so I feel is goes deeper than just one marque being displaced. I agree on a reshuffle and agree 7's would be maybe too dominant for ITB. when SCCA reshuffled last time they saw fit to name their new classes GT1 thru 5, why they didnt name their production classes the same would be a guess but it was probly to save vinyl. SS1=IT1, SS2=IT2, and so on would make since to most of us, after all, the IT class is supposed to(Neon)give SS cars somewhere to go.

Derek, dont feel bad, I have a s--tload of racecars and I have missed a year out of the last two due to blown motors, all my fault im sure, I have 12 extra parts in my left foot all made of stainless, but I'd swear my right is mostly made of lead......



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Daryl Brightwell
ITA RX7 #11
NORPAC
ITA RX7 #77
SOPAC

http://www.calclub.com/gallery/showphoto.p...m&cat=500&page=

EP this summer
 
Count me in with Derek on this one. More classes isn't going to change anything except the number of trophies handed out at the end of the day. If that is your primary concern, take your tire money and buy some trophies!!
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Affordable racing? Isn't that an oxymoron? No matter what is done, someone will always spend more than others to get to the front. Even in spec classes, this is the case. The only place I have seen a class that was close to "affordable" was the claimer Basic International Car class at the local dirt track. You knew how much your car was worth ($500, iirc) and, if you spent more than that, you knew someone could claim it.

I'm going to wait and see what the ITAC and the CRB do about the whole PCA thing. I agree that some cars need to be moved in the classes, but this isn't going to change who they are running with on the track.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
 
Derek,
I hear what you're saying with adding more classes and essentially wattering down things. BUT this is a bit different. Going back to what Jake outlined, we would still have a seperate class for ITC cars. Lets face it, there are not a ton of ITC cars running right now nor are there many cars out there with 80hp to move there without changing the class' structure and adjusting the type of car that is in the class. And adding ITR would be accepting the newer / faster cars.

I really agree with Raymond about the racing budget. Yeah sure, a person can't expect to buy/build a car and expect that it will always be the car to have. But they should be able to have a car and also have a place to race. There is no way IT CLUB racing should require that people go out and buy new race cars every few years. Pro racing? Yeah sure. But not entry level club racing. Take a look at the cars out there and are doing well. Cars from the late '80s. Pretty amazing when you think about it. Also pretty great!

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...it is REGIONAL ENTRY LEVEL racing...NEEDS TO STAY AFORDABLE...</font>
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A pet peeve of mine, Raymond; please indulge me.

There is NO such thing as "entry level" racing, nor "affordable" racing, especially in SCCA. The level you choose to enter into racing is based TOTALLY on how much money you want to spend. There is nothing in the rules that keeps me from buying a brandy-new Toyota Atlantic car, hiring Chip Ganassi to crew it, and showing up at my first driver's school in a $1500 driver's suit. Nothing. Alternatively, there's nothing to keep me from going to a couple of Skippy schools, an SCCA school, three regionals, and then showing up at a World Challenge event with a brandy-new Turner E46. It's all a matter of money, and how much you want to (or can) open your wallet.

Then there's the idea that Regional-only classes are intended to be "entry level". This is silly. Regardless of what SCCA might say, this is patently untrue. The reason that IT, SM, CF, Club sports racer, and all the other classes are not National classes has nothing to do with their intended or stated purpose. They are Regioanl only simply because the SCCA only has so many classes they can accept into the National program for inclusion into the National Championship event. At some point, about in the early-80s, everyone started complaining about the number of classes causing event scheduling problems, so SCCA decided to limit the number of National classes. Other popular classes sprouted up regionally and were ignored by Greenwich/Englewood/Topeka.

Then came IT. It was so popular so fast (e.g., Spec Miata) that National could not ignore it. Everyone was clamouring for a consistent set of rules nationally (e.g., Spec Miata) but SCCA did not want to add yet another National class to the roster. So, they created national standard rules and put in the "regional only" clause in the category specs. It's that simple, no more, no less.

Finally, if you look upon IT as an "entry level" class simply because it's Regional-only then you're really missing the boat. That kind of attitude infers that there's a lesser amount of money spent and a lesser amount of talent participating. If you think that then you have not been paying attention. IT, and to a greater extent Spec Miata, have been and will continue to be some of the most competitive racing out there, and I sincerely doubt there's any way to spend more money that some of these teams do. Rest assured that if either or both were taken to a National level, it's highly doubtful the competition would/could be any more fierce.

Enjoy, and don't forget that while you may feel you're the red-headed stepchild of SCCA, it doesn't get any better than this in Club Racing...

GregA
 
Originally posted by madrabbit15:
making another class is a horrible idea. Look what it has done to solo II. 25 or more classes at any regional event with maybe more than one other person in your class if your lucky. Only a few classes have a decent field.
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Are you joking? Solo2 is by far the SCCA's most successful division! Solo2 is growing by leaps and bounds and is reaching all new records of participation. I hardly think of Solo2 as a failure!

Hey, thinking of Solo2, maybe we should have a Street tire class? I can finally run those $50 Falken Azenis tires!
 
Originally posted by grega:
That kind of attitude infers that there's a lesser amount of money spent and a lesser amount of talent participating. If you think that then you have not been paying attention. IT, and to a greater extent Spec Miata, have been and will continue to be some of the most competitive racing out there, and I sincerely doubt there's any way to spend more money that some of these teams do. Rest assured that if either or both were taken to a National level, it's highly doubtful the competition would/could be any more fierce.
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Oh, I don't know Greg. With a national championship on the line at The Runoffs, I'm sure there would be more money spent. I don't know that there would be a change in the level of talent, but I could very easily envision more money spent. Shoot, I've seen people spent $200 to win $100 at a money race in karting. I've also seen them drive pretty crazy to get it. I've seen the same at a double points race. It's amazing what people will do.

You may be right Greg, but I can certainly envision a different scenario.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
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