But the difference between SS and IT is the age of the cars. I bought my first MR2 for 2500. And it is nicer then the day to day drivers in that price range. I did not have to do anything to the car..it was turn key, even came with 4 sets of tires I did not have to buy tires the first year.
This is the big difference between a 10+ yr old car and a new SS car.
Banzai240
New member
Dick,
We think there are... I don't have the list in front of me right now, but watch for the upcoming Fastrack for some of those that are being considered...
You guys would be able to answer this as much as I can... Give me a list. The 1.7L VWs are already being suggested, as is the 1.7L Porsche 914. Throw out some more suggestions if you have them...
I'm still not convinced that there is any significance to the concern that any ITC cars would be "displaced" were we to move some of the slower ITB cars to ITC... Thus far, not one car of any popularity has been mentioned...
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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
RSTPerformance
New member
Asok #25-
My above statement was based on my feedback here... Thank you for your feedback, and I don’t disagree to say that the cars in your list don’t have potential.
I know mostly about ITB cars, and I think my list was very complete and accurate.
I don’t know a ton about the different cars in ITS other than what I have seen in the Northeast and at the ARRC and the only cars that I have seen run up front are the BMW and RX-7 (I think a 944 also could have a decent chance and I have seen a few very fast Datson Z’s in the past) Other cars in ITS seem to be relatively well prepared and driven, but are not even close to the front.
I know a little about ITA cars- I think that “back in the day” a Corvair (sp?), RX-3, and Capri used to be the cars to have in ITA, then the MR2 or RX-7, but now none of them stand a chance in ITA, and if built properly could blow everyone away in ITB. I don’t think the Miata, RX-7, or Escort Gt have a fighting chance. I have seen those well built and I think that those should be the top dogs in ITA and the other cars that are faster should be moved. I have no opinion of the new face of ITS opps I mean ITA!!! I think that the future additions to ITA will only make the necessity to move half the ITA field to ITB, and I am very afraid that will ruin the ITB feild of relatively inexpensive cars. By the time all the PCA’s are done over 4 or 5 years ITB will have turned into what ITA and ITS has become (a much to expensive class, with dominant cars).
I don’t know much about ITC but it seems that ITC is in relatively decent shape, but might be able to use some of the underdog ITB cars. I think that a slow ITC car is underdeveloped. That really is a great class for people who are still in school to join in. I loved the U Mass team that Sam set up here in the Northeast. It was a great feeder for people into SCCA.
Here is a link to the feedback from before:
http://forum.improvedtouring.com/it/Forum1...TML/001243.html
I still think that when you look at results and the numbers of DIFFERENT CARS actually winning or being within a second or 2 seconds of winning or qualifying pole in ITB and ITC you will notice a much larger variety. I DO think that cars could be shuffled from class to class (some ITB cars to ITC and some ITA cars to ITB. However I do think that the spread of cars from the top dogs in ITS to the underdogs in ITA you could realistically add another class and have MORE great races for champions.
As far as cars not developed and people thinking that they have no chance, 3 years ago my Audi would probably have had your * next to it if it had even been on your list at all for ITB. I built my car even though everyone said it had no chance. When I started building it I didn't even know how to look at a car and see if it had potential, I just liked the car and decided to build it, so I am sure their are plenty of "underdogs" that could compete.
Sooo… I really think that another class needs to be built not even between ITA and ITS but possibly above ITS. I think that ITA and ITS has cars that could move up and cars that could move down. I just don't like the whole "trickle down evolution idea. It doesn't have to be that way. I know of a 1980 ITB car that has NEVER been built in ITB yet and would make a great winning car (It is basically an Audi Coupe, but not). Anyway I respect your thoughts, and wouldn’t have any problems IF SCCA decided to leave IT how it is now.
SCCA, For the fun of it!!! (Is that stil our slogan?)
Raymond Blethen
My above statement was based on my feedback here... Thank you for your feedback, and I don’t disagree to say that the cars in your list don’t have potential.
I know mostly about ITB cars, and I think my list was very complete and accurate.
I don’t know a ton about the different cars in ITS other than what I have seen in the Northeast and at the ARRC and the only cars that I have seen run up front are the BMW and RX-7 (I think a 944 also could have a decent chance and I have seen a few very fast Datson Z’s in the past) Other cars in ITS seem to be relatively well prepared and driven, but are not even close to the front.
I know a little about ITA cars- I think that “back in the day” a Corvair (sp?), RX-3, and Capri used to be the cars to have in ITA, then the MR2 or RX-7, but now none of them stand a chance in ITA, and if built properly could blow everyone away in ITB. I don’t think the Miata, RX-7, or Escort Gt have a fighting chance. I have seen those well built and I think that those should be the top dogs in ITA and the other cars that are faster should be moved. I have no opinion of the new face of ITS opps I mean ITA!!! I think that the future additions to ITA will only make the necessity to move half the ITA field to ITB, and I am very afraid that will ruin the ITB feild of relatively inexpensive cars. By the time all the PCA’s are done over 4 or 5 years ITB will have turned into what ITA and ITS has become (a much to expensive class, with dominant cars).
I don’t know much about ITC but it seems that ITC is in relatively decent shape, but might be able to use some of the underdog ITB cars. I think that a slow ITC car is underdeveloped. That really is a great class for people who are still in school to join in. I loved the U Mass team that Sam set up here in the Northeast. It was a great feeder for people into SCCA.
Here is a link to the feedback from before:
http://forum.improvedtouring.com/it/Forum1...TML/001243.html
I still think that when you look at results and the numbers of DIFFERENT CARS actually winning or being within a second or 2 seconds of winning or qualifying pole in ITB and ITC you will notice a much larger variety. I DO think that cars could be shuffled from class to class (some ITB cars to ITC and some ITA cars to ITB. However I do think that the spread of cars from the top dogs in ITS to the underdogs in ITA you could realistically add another class and have MORE great races for champions.
As far as cars not developed and people thinking that they have no chance, 3 years ago my Audi would probably have had your * next to it if it had even been on your list at all for ITB. I built my car even though everyone said it had no chance. When I started building it I didn't even know how to look at a car and see if it had potential, I just liked the car and decided to build it, so I am sure their are plenty of "underdogs" that could compete.
Sooo… I really think that another class needs to be built not even between ITA and ITS but possibly above ITS. I think that ITA and ITS has cars that could move up and cars that could move down. I just don't like the whole "trickle down evolution idea. It doesn't have to be that way. I know of a 1980 ITB car that has NEVER been built in ITB yet and would make a great winning car (It is basically an Audi Coupe, but not). Anyway I respect your thoughts, and wouldn’t have any problems IF SCCA decided to leave IT how it is now.
SCCA, For the fun of it!!! (Is that stil our slogan?)
Raymond Blethen
RSTPerformance
New member
Originally posted by grega:
I disagree. I raced in Showroom Stock while I was still in college, using it as my daily driver car. I had a 5-year loan, my monthly payments were affordable, and I drove to the track. How many "affordable" IT racers can claim to be doing that now?
Grega- What would have happened if you totaled your $15,000 car now??? or then??? Could you afford two car payments to get back on the track within 5 years?
Raymond
I disagree. I raced in Showroom Stock while I was still in college, using it as my daily driver car. I had a 5-year loan, my monthly payments were affordable, and I drove to the track. How many "affordable" IT racers can claim to be doing that now?
Grega- What would have happened if you totaled your $15,000 car now??? or then??? Could you afford two car payments to get back on the track within 5 years?
Raymond
I don't think the Escort or the RX-7 have a chance in ITA, but I do think that the Miata can be as good as the CRX.
I also think that ITA cars are about as inexpensive as ITB cars, for the most part. I don't understand the concern about moving some slow ITA cars to ITB ruining "the ITB field of relatively inexpensive cars".
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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA
Joel
This took me 3 minouts to find this MARRS race. Less than 3 year old.
http://www.ncrscca.com/Pdf/2002%20Race%20r...4%20revised.pdf
Raymond
Your very well spoken and you make a good argument. But I feel The majority of IT cars can be competitive. The outliers that do exist are on the bottom end of the classes. E30 318is in ITS. 912E in ITA. The SCCA has done a great job in classifying cars.
IMO! A 5th IT class is a mistake. Where is the line? The Corvair. Does it go with the fast ITA cars or the slow? 140hp stock hmm sounds fast… 4 wheel drum… sounds slow. How about the biggest motor in IT the 4.2 liter AMC Spirit? Sounds fast to me… but 90hp stock sounds darn right slow. What cars are dropped from ITS? 944, 1st gen RX-7, TR-8 the only V-8 classified and biggest motor in ITS at 3.5 liters. To add a 5th class is only going to make the whole thing that much more political.
I say keep it the way it is and thank the boys in Topeka for doing as good a job as they do.
p.s. I have seen a few Fire Arrows run. 2.6 liters in ITB looks good to me.
p.s.s. Here is a race where a 190E won out of a 37 ITS car field.
http://www.cfrscca.org/results/DAY_MAY/ECRsaturday.htm
This took me 3 minouts to find this MARRS race. Less than 3 year old.
http://www.ncrscca.com/Pdf/2002%20Race%20r...4%20revised.pdf
Raymond
Your very well spoken and you make a good argument. But I feel The majority of IT cars can be competitive. The outliers that do exist are on the bottom end of the classes. E30 318is in ITS. 912E in ITA. The SCCA has done a great job in classifying cars.
IMO! A 5th IT class is a mistake. Where is the line? The Corvair. Does it go with the fast ITA cars or the slow? 140hp stock hmm sounds fast… 4 wheel drum… sounds slow. How about the biggest motor in IT the 4.2 liter AMC Spirit? Sounds fast to me… but 90hp stock sounds darn right slow. What cars are dropped from ITS? 944, 1st gen RX-7, TR-8 the only V-8 classified and biggest motor in ITS at 3.5 liters. To add a 5th class is only going to make the whole thing that much more political.
I say keep it the way it is and thank the boys in Topeka for doing as good a job as they do.
p.s. I have seen a few Fire Arrows run. 2.6 liters in ITB looks good to me.
p.s.s. Here is a race where a 190E won out of a 37 ITS car field.
http://www.cfrscca.org/results/DAY_MAY/ECRsaturday.htm
gran racing
Super Moderator
You can't possibly keep things as they are forever. Unfortunate, maybe. There has to be a point where things slowly change, hopefully for the better. And of course you need to be careful!
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
Well, obviously, I was smart enough to not have put myself in that situation if I could not have afforded to get out of it...let's just say that 'back then' there were a lot of dogs running out into the middle of the roads, putting cars into ditches just outside of major racetracks...
Today I would not put my only car onto the race track. At worst I'd have an old diesel Rabbit at the ready to go to work "just in case".
But today's a totally different scenario. I raced Showroom Stock for four years without a truck and trailer (well, not counting the little one I towed behind with tires and tools). Remember all the publicity I got at the 2002 OMP Challenge when I drove the NX2000 to LRP being chased by my brother-in-law's Dodge Caravan? It was an oddity, and it got attention.
Today there's not a soul in the paddock that drove their car to the racetrack. I find it really irritating to hear people scream "poverty" while showing up with trucks, trailers, tools, spares, extra wheels and tires, canopies, grills, real chairs, real tents, real sleeping bags, hell all the comforts of home.
Guess it's all in the attitude, and what you really want to do. If you REALLY want it, you'll find a way. If you don't, then you'll bitch about not getting it.
GA
[This message has been edited by grega (edited April 14, 2004).]
RSTPerformance
New member
Grega-
"Today there's not a soul in the paddock that drove their car to the racetrack. I find it really hard to accept the "povery" defense when people are showing up with trucks, trailers, tools, spares, extra wheels and tires, canopies, grills, real chairs, real tents, real sleeping bags, hell all the comforts of home."
Exactly...
Asok #25-
I agree with you that SCCA IT is fine right now, I don't have a problem with it. I originally posted only cause IF SCCA is planning for the FUTURE I think we will need 3 classes in the uper portion of the spectrum. I would like to see a class that has cars such as the "Killer ITS BMW"
jumt my opinion, and I do thank all the people who have made IT what it is, no matter what class their is their will always be problems... I think all in all the IT classes are the best group of classes in the US
Raymond
"Today there's not a soul in the paddock that drove their car to the racetrack. I find it really hard to accept the "povery" defense when people are showing up with trucks, trailers, tools, spares, extra wheels and tires, canopies, grills, real chairs, real tents, real sleeping bags, hell all the comforts of home."
Exactly...
Asok #25-
I agree with you that SCCA IT is fine right now, I don't have a problem with it. I originally posted only cause IF SCCA is planning for the FUTURE I think we will need 3 classes in the uper portion of the spectrum. I would like to see a class that has cars such as the "Killer ITS BMW"
jumt my opinion, and I do thank all the people who have made IT what it is, no matter what class their is their will always be problems... I think all in all the IT classes are the best group of classes in the US
Raymond
gran racing
Super Moderator
I didn't realize people were screaming poverty?? Just "affordable" racing. There is a big difference. IT should be a place where racing can be done on a reasonable budget. Why is that so bad to want and expect? If the cheapest way to get into racing was to spend $15K on a race car, I'd still be sitting in the bleachers watching. And again as I previously posted, I'm not saying that someone on a low budget should expect to win. Just expect to have a place to race and have some fun.
And as Jake, I too drove my car to various tracks up until last year. Kinda got tiring having kids want to race me at every light...Then I pulled the race car on a inexpensive tow dolly with a 4 cylinder Jeep Wrangler (which did a really great job surprisingly - of course not recommending it to anyone). "I" then finally decided (wife nagging about the used car parking lot) to sell the cars we had and get a pick-up to tow the race car with. I know, I was in shock too.
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
And as Jake, I too drove my car to various tracks up until last year. Kinda got tiring having kids want to race me at every light...Then I pulled the race car on a inexpensive tow dolly with a 4 cylinder Jeep Wrangler (which did a really great job surprisingly - of course not recommending it to anyone). "I" then finally decided (wife nagging about the used car parking lot) to sell the cars we had and get a pick-up to tow the race car with. I know, I was in shock too.
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
Therein lies the rub, Dave:
- Define "affordable"
- Define "reasonable"
- Define "cheap" and "inexpensive"
- Hell, define "fun"!
Ask 25 people, and you'll get...?
I still contend that there are very few classes in the SCCA that someone cannot "at least get into" with a minimal of money. That counts National, Regional, formula, sports racer, tin-tops, whatever else. Once you've committed to buying a truck and trailer you've opened an entire racing world at your disposal.
What we're debating here is not getting in, it's being competitive. And that's a whole 'nother issue...
- Define "affordable"
- Define "reasonable"
- Define "cheap" and "inexpensive"
- Hell, define "fun"!
Ask 25 people, and you'll get...?
I still contend that there are very few classes in the SCCA that someone cannot "at least get into" with a minimal of money. That counts National, Regional, formula, sports racer, tin-tops, whatever else. Once you've committed to buying a truck and trailer you've opened an entire racing world at your disposal.
What we're debating here is not getting in, it's being competitive. And that's a whole 'nother issue...
planet6racing
New member
Affordable racing, or affordable in-class, near-the-front competition?
You can race in IT for under $5000. It is possible. You won't be near the front, but you'll probably have someone back there to race with. You can race in FF for under $10K. Again, you won't be near the front, but you'll probably have someone to race with. You can race in SM for about $7000. You won't be near the front, but you'll probably have someone to race with.
There are very few classes that aren't "affordable" (T1, GT, SRF, FM, and FC all come to mind). It really comes down to where you want to finish.
IT gives you a place to "race" your car provided you do the minimal safety improvements. That's all it was ever intended to do. It is still at that point and I can't say that I want to see it change.
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
You can race in IT for under $5000. It is possible. You won't be near the front, but you'll probably have someone back there to race with. You can race in FF for under $10K. Again, you won't be near the front, but you'll probably have someone to race with. You can race in SM for about $7000. You won't be near the front, but you'll probably have someone to race with.
There are very few classes that aren't "affordable" (T1, GT, SRF, FM, and FC all come to mind). It really comes down to where you want to finish.
IT gives you a place to "race" your car provided you do the minimal safety improvements. That's all it was ever intended to do. It is still at that point and I can't say that I want to see it change.
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
Bill Miller
New member
Asok,
That's a bit misleading. The VIR race is actually a joint SARRC/MARRS event. If you look at the third place (overall) car, it has MTS listed for the class, and 1st as class position. That's Ed York's E36 BMW, and he did indeed win the MARRS race at VIR. He finished behind a 240Z and an RX7 (both SARRC cars), but he was listed as the winner of the MARRS ITS race.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
That's a bit misleading. The VIR race is actually a joint SARRC/MARRS event. If you look at the third place (overall) car, it has MTS listed for the class, and 1st as class position. That's Ed York's E36 BMW, and he did indeed win the MARRS race at VIR. He finished behind a 240Z and an RX7 (both SARRC cars), but he was listed as the winner of the MARRS ITS race.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
Banzai240
New member
Thank you Bill... Excellent observation...
It's facts like this that clearly show why you CANNOT just use race results to measure things... You have to look at all the factors involved...
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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
G
Guest
Guest
Im lost, what does class intent or affordability have to do with bringing the cars a little closer together performance wise? thats what most asked the CRB for and thats what they are doing. I had a freind tell me the other day he spent $19,000 on a single EP engine, dosnt garrantee he will win, just insures how he'll feel if it goes up in smoke. 40k to 50k IT cars, oops, sorry about the donut, didnt seem to hurt my 10k P.O.S.