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Raymond
Raymond
Gregg
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You can also infer that a leading ITS Integra didn't run and that a 2nd gen RX-7 that qualified in the top five spun off on the 1st lapOriginally posted by Banzai240:
If I were to infer anything from this, it's that the 240Z is still a great ITS car... The BMW is still an overdog in the class... and that basing our reclassification efforts on the specifications of the CRX, the 240SX and the Acura is the right thing to do...
....that's IF I were to infer anything from this...
Oh, and that winning CRX is 100+ lbs overweight already (I should know--I need a diet).
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Gregg Ginsberg
http://www.ginsberg.org
'89 CRX Si -- #72 ITA / H4
2003 WDCR-SCCA Rookie of the Year
[This message has been edited by Gregg (edited May 11, 2004).]
What I can tell, with or without the list is that well driven, well prepared, ITA cars will beat many ITS cars.
It also tells me that any ITS racer in that series without a BMW has their work cut out for them. One can argue "well the next x number of finishers weren't BMW's". 24 second margin...That BMW was in a different area code.
Last thing I want to do is factor the driver into any equation when deciding what class a vehicle should be in, or at what weight. The driver should never enter that equation.
Other forms of motorsports (motorcross and karting come to mind) keep people with a certain level of accomplishment from participating in entry level classes. Perhaps drivers with 3 or more points championships should be excluded from participating in ITB/C? (ducking)
It also tells me that any ITS racer in that series without a BMW has their work cut out for them. One can argue "well the next x number of finishers weren't BMW's". 24 second margin...That BMW was in a different area code.
Last thing I want to do is factor the driver into any equation when deciding what class a vehicle should be in, or at what weight. The driver should never enter that equation.
Other forms of motorsports (motorcross and karting come to mind) keep people with a certain level of accomplishment from participating in entry level classes. Perhaps drivers with 3 or more points championships should be excluded from participating in ITB/C? (ducking)
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Not exactly.... it means he is good, yes, but it also means the ITS guys are not even close to getting the job done.
If there is an ITB car that is beating, on the track, in a race, well driven, well prepared ITS cars like an E-36, or an RX-7, or a Z car, then something is very fishy.
Physics is physics, folks.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Well, maybe, but, how did he gain that 24 seconds? Were the guys behind him racing with each other? If so, that can cost 1 or 2 seconds a lap. Or maybe the second place car got there on a good start, held up the pack, then spun? Or...
See, without complete knowledge, the data point is less meaningful.
Now take this ONE data point, and add it to dozens more, and you may see a pattern. Into that fold some engineering data, and you might be able to draw a conclusion.
I mean I, yes, even I, pass, and even LAP ITS cars from time to time! And here in the 30 car plus fields in the NE ITA class, I struggle for a top ten finish.
Going slow is easy...
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Now I'm quoting myself. Has it come to this? Point being that the faster classes are oversubscribed, while the lower ones are dwindling. Very few are building new ITC cars, lots of people are building ITS and ITA cars. Do other regions see this same trend? The SCCA won't let us get another class until we use the ones we have.
I understand your point about not being there and knowing all the particulars. But, traffic doesn't cost you 1-2 seconds a lap for 12-24 laps in a row. Maybe a lap or two. If there is that much muscling for position while the leader is checking out, they (2-5th place for example) need to sit down with each other and say "to each his own for the first lap or two. If we are just getting in each others' way and letting the leader check out, we need to get in line , whatever it is after lap 2 and help each other catch the leader, then all bets are off."
Back on topic, whatever it was
gran racing
Super Moderator
Where to start...
The numbers that were provided are just that; numbers. You can't possibly just look at them and know the full story. Can you think of any pro sports that don't use scouting and review tapes of their competitors? Why do you think that is? It sure would be easier and much cheaper to just look at numbers but doesn't make sense.
As it relates to racing - who showed up to the event? Did some of the faster people not show or have problems? There are many things that it doesn't show. (Pick on Ray's car time) In our recent race weekend, a certain ITB Audi had a difficult day. Just looking at the lap times, what would an outsider assume? But the real story is that the car had some issues to be sorted out and is a very strong car.
Weights / other comp. adjustments - yeah, I've often thought about it too. Works in world challenge, BUT you also need to look at the two forms of racing closer. IT is strictly for the racers, workers and other members. Heck, it might be nice if IT promoted itself and could get money from spectators but it isn't the situation currently. At my local track, they make the money from ticket sales not SCCA. World Challenge is definately concerned with marketing its product. Of course they care about the racing aspect, but it still is (like other forms of racing) trying to reach a target audience and sell.
I would be all for any ways to reduce the costs of racing and rewards for simply spending more money on a car. But I would hate to penalize a people for being good drivers and taking time to study and learn ways to improve upon their driving skills. Should people that spend time and study racing be penalized for their efforts?
Jake - An ITB car beating a well driven, well prepared ITS car (both cars classed competitively)...if all these items were equal, then I would definately agree that something is wrong. Often times though the car may be well prepared but is it being driven to its potential? Or otherwise, it is driven very well but is under developed. Sometimes it can be difficult to determine which is the case.
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
The numbers that were provided are just that; numbers. You can't possibly just look at them and know the full story. Can you think of any pro sports that don't use scouting and review tapes of their competitors? Why do you think that is? It sure would be easier and much cheaper to just look at numbers but doesn't make sense.
As it relates to racing - who showed up to the event? Did some of the faster people not show or have problems? There are many things that it doesn't show. (Pick on Ray's car time) In our recent race weekend, a certain ITB Audi had a difficult day. Just looking at the lap times, what would an outsider assume? But the real story is that the car had some issues to be sorted out and is a very strong car.
Weights / other comp. adjustments - yeah, I've often thought about it too. Works in world challenge, BUT you also need to look at the two forms of racing closer. IT is strictly for the racers, workers and other members. Heck, it might be nice if IT promoted itself and could get money from spectators but it isn't the situation currently. At my local track, they make the money from ticket sales not SCCA. World Challenge is definately concerned with marketing its product. Of course they care about the racing aspect, but it still is (like other forms of racing) trying to reach a target audience and sell.
I would be all for any ways to reduce the costs of racing and rewards for simply spending more money on a car. But I would hate to penalize a people for being good drivers and taking time to study and learn ways to improve upon their driving skills. Should people that spend time and study racing be penalized for their efforts?
Jake - An ITB car beating a well driven, well prepared ITS car (both cars classed competitively)...if all these items were equal, then I would definately agree that something is wrong. Often times though the car may be well prepared but is it being driven to its potential? Or otherwise, it is driven very well but is under developed. Sometimes it can be difficult to determine which is the case.
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
lateapex911
Super Moderator
OK, lets REALLY confuse things... I'll quote you! Jake quotes Jake....
Your numbers are actually not quite right...my results sheets show that the ITA/ITC group was 35 cars strong. 3 were ITC.
If the no shows had raced, we would have had 37 ITA, and 5 ITC cars.
Off the top of my head, I can think of 4 or 5 ITA guys and 1 ITC guy who are "regulars" but weren't at this event.
With the no shows and them it could have been a full field just with ITA!
Next year? In with the NEONs, the SE-Rs and the NX2000. Out with the Prelude, FX-16.
Net net is about the same, maybe a car more.
So, your point is more than well taken, some form of redistribution should be strongly considered before talk of a new class is broached.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
I can only comment on the car that I have seen doing this. There is nothing fishy about the car it is just very well prepped and the driver is just that good. I have seen a ITS car walk away from it on the straights then get passed back when it gets twisty...after a lap or two the ITS car can't pass on the straight again and the other car is gone. And no the other drivers don't suck this guy is just that good. I have stories of where he got in someone elses car and was over 2sec a lap faster then the guy that just got out, and the guy that just got out was no slow poke. I have also seen other people in his ITB car and "I" could pass them. Put the guy that usually drives the car and I feel good if he only laps me twice.
What I was trying to point out is that this guy put time and money into his car developed his skill and now is the guy. To use his performance on the track as a guide to to what should be done with the cars is wrong, to exclude him from running in a class he enjoys just cause he is good is wrong.
And why does his car have to be fishy? I don't know this guy personally but I know that what you are suggesting would be repulsive to him and his support.
If people feel that a car is in the incorrect class one should look at the entire country see how the car is doing across the board, over a couple of years. You will see all the cars with all possible prep levels and driver skills. You should be-able to figure out what the average finishing position of the car is. If over a couple of years you see is start to slide down then it is being passed by newer cars. If you see the number of cars raced go down the people are moving on to different things.
But I still don't think that anything should be done about it, it is just the evolution of the class. Or maybe there should be an IT-Dinosaur class that all the older cars are lumped into...Kinda like vintage but with a IT/Prod set of rules, take the best of both worlds and put them together.
It is sad to say but I think that ITC will start to see its numbers dwindle then it will happen to ITB, lets face it folks some of these cars are getting old, and not too many new cars are likely to be classed in ITB or ITC.
But I still don't think that anything should be done about it, it is just the evolution of the class. Or maybe there should be an IT-Dinosaur class that all the older cars are lumped into...Kinda like vintage but with a IT/Prod set of rules, take the best of both worlds and put them together.
It is sad to say but I think that ITC will start to see its numbers dwindle then it will happen to ITB, lets face it folks some of these cars are getting old, and not too many new cars are likely to be classed in ITB or ITC.
It's simple - either the car is way illegal or the ITS cars you see out there are very 'UNDER' - underprepped or underdriven.
I tend to think it's the latter - you are probably overestimating the talent or prep level of the ITS cars in question. Looking at the ARRC results as a small data point, you have to get to 21st ITS position to find someone who qualified slower than the ITB pole - and we don't even know if that car had issues.
No disrespect to the driver you mention - it's just not apples and apples.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
What is sad is that I think we have this now. ITB and ITC are effectivly vintage classes. No new cars can be classed there because even the most mundane cars produced now would exceed the performance parameters of ITB and ITC.
The only thing to do to refresh these classes is to trickle everything down. With 3-5 ITC cars running in the second largest Region in the country, ITC is in trouble.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
If B&C could be combined and mods made to both groups to bring the close in performance (this should/would have to include NON-typical IT adjustments).
We might have to think of different brakes,carbs,intakes,cams for some of these cars to get them in line, but these are older cars and it is fairly known what will happen if you let someone swap out drums for disc brakes, or give them a different carb...just some ideas.
We need to think of it as an IT-vintage not as a "real" IT class, kinda like we think of ITE now, just a little more structured.
Then you would have an extra class to shuffle the existing A&S cars into, so you would have ITC with just the old cars and B,A,S for newer cars that don't fit or are too fast for any class now.
The key is to give the people that still love these old cars a place to go with out having to spend too much to get to the new level of prep to be able to win.
I for one don't care if there is an ITB or ITC on the side of my car just as long as I have somewhere to go, in the IT structure.
There are only a few old cars that would not fit very well and I don't have a good plan for them...the TR8 off the top of my head.
We might have to think of different brakes,carbs,intakes,cams for some of these cars to get them in line, but these are older cars and it is fairly known what will happen if you let someone swap out drums for disc brakes, or give them a different carb...just some ideas.
We need to think of it as an IT-vintage not as a "real" IT class, kinda like we think of ITE now, just a little more structured.
Then you would have an extra class to shuffle the existing A&S cars into, so you would have ITC with just the old cars and B,A,S for newer cars that don't fit or are too fast for any class now.
The key is to give the people that still love these old cars a place to go with out having to spend too much to get to the new level of prep to be able to win.
I for one don't care if there is an ITB or ITC on the side of my car just as long as I have somewhere to go, in the IT structure.
There are only a few old cars that would not fit very well and I don't have a good plan for them...the TR8 off the top of my head.
JeffYoung
New member
If the 24 second victory you are talking about is Chet Wittel's wins at VIR this weekend, it wasn't traffic. Ed York was running close times to him, but broke, but that is another fast, fast BMW.
Two of the best prepped, well-driven RX7s in the region finished 2 & 3, running 3 seconds a lap slower.
A 2:12 at VIR in an S car is an AMAZING lap. Really hard to put it into words.
Two of the best prepped, well-driven RX7s in the region finished 2 & 3, running 3 seconds a lap slower.
A 2:12 at VIR in an S car is an AMAZING lap. Really hard to put it into words.
Originally posted by Gregg:
You can also infer that a leading ITS Integra didn't run and that a 2nd gen RX-7 that qualified in the top five spun off on the 1st lap
Gregg, I wasn't there. I really don't know what to make of it, other than the fact IF I had been there, I most likely would have ended up 'racing' with a bunch of ITA guys
From the rest of the results (I left the DNFs out of my list), 2 e36s fell out for some reason, and another one didn't make the start because his car isn't finished yet.
The good finish by the 240Zs is odd: I don't recall seeing anything like that happen since I've been watching the MARRS IT races. I'm wouldn't be surprised if there was a time when it was common for the all the top ITS places to be 240Zs, but that hasn't happened in the sinc I've been around (last 2-3 years).
joel
Very very BAD ideas.
Never going to happen as long as the current ITAC and CRB and BoD are around. If you want to change all those things, go to Production.
Cars are going to have to trickle down. Darin asked how many cars were at the bottom of ITC and would be in trouble and nobody, and I mean nobody responded. I don't think it's that big a problem.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
I do see your point and agree to a point, But when talk about moving the 7 to ITB quite a few people had issues with it.
Someone up the list said something to the effect that 5 ITC cars in the second largest area is a sign of trouble...perhaps ITC is beginning to fade away, I am not saying anything to make anyone mad just drawing conculisions by what is said here.
What I suggest is that someone can take their ITC car do something semi-cheap and semi-easy and race and have a chance, with quite a few cars to race with. If you want those same people to go to Prod we are talking about new cages for some, fire systems, fuel cells and the list goes on and on just to get the car on the track with a XP on the side of it, and after that you have not a chance in he!! to even come close to winning unless you join the engine of the month club, and learn how to design your own susp. The mods I suggest every 15yr old car crazy kid knows how to do, and would be little different then the ITE "rules" set. (I had a Viper and a Cobra R blow by my ITA MR2 followed by a turbo AWD 911), the only problem I have with that is my race is 5 laps shorter the it realy should be but that is a different topic all together.
I was told long ago that IT was a place for SS cars to go when they get too old. There are very different sets of rules for SS and IT. Think of the IT-vintage idea of a place for IT cars to go when they get too old. An IT level of prep but you can use some different parts. If your 30+ yr old car can't get a cam or piston anymore then you would be ok to use aftermarket parts, do normal "hot rod" kind of things. But not have to design your own susp parts and stuff like that. It would do away with Datusn cam problems and things like that.
You are right though it would never happen, too bad I think it might just work.
Try to think of it as a different class but not a different class kinda like ITE...if that makes any sense
[This message has been edited by cherokee (edited May 12, 2004).]
Team Rocket
New member
There are some Regional Clubs that allow modifications to move up a class and it works great! (EMRA for example). If there is a year where one of the lower classes is under-subscribed (or all of the competition you want to race against is in a higher class), then you add something like a cam and move up.
However, I would agree getting that to work on a National level would be pretty tough.
Jim