The new ITA class

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You have a valid point, Steve but one that is valid only if applied from the traditional club racing paradigm of "it's all about me and whether my car is competitive or not."

When I was actively lobbying for IT2, I got a lot of criticism from people saying exactly the same thing - I should quit being an "agitator" and just pick a car that is competitive.

My point was that SOMEONE ought to be keeping an eye on the strategic picture. This takes the position that pure supply-demand, market-forces kind of thinking isn't ultimately good for the club, of course - that some "managed economy" practices might be beneficial...

Look at it this way: If initial car classification is driven only by member request, AND if most people behave rationally and select cars that are likely to be competitive, the mean performance of a class simply cannot help but increase.

Generally speaking, people are more likely to ask that cars with high potential be listed than those with low potential. Racers are then more likely to select high-potential cars than others, particularly racers with the most resources available to allocate. While there will always be cases that run counter to these rules, the trend line is established by the masses, kind of like birds eating moths that stand out against their backgrounds at rates disproportionate to those suffered by moths that blend in. More of those camoflaged bugs will successfully reproduce.

If someone guesses wrong with an initial classification (aguably the case with the CRX Si in A) and a car has a substantial advantage - or is percieved to have one - that process only accelerates. The response among members is to ask for other high-potential cars to be classified and the response by the CRB is to back-fill the class by listing them, rather than addressing the original error if that's even possible.

Where do we end up?

The IT2 proposal asked for proactive strategy to address the problem of the ITS orphans. It wasn't within the "me first" paradigm so it went nowhere: It would have required more strategic planning than the system is set up to handle.

The net result is what we have now been whacking away about for weeks now: The top of A becomes IT2 and the rest of A potentially suffers - to the degree that people suggest new classes as reactive solutions.

Hmmm.

K
 
K,
I see your position, and I agree that some forward-thinking strategies need to be furthered. We don't want the whole thing to whither and die because "it's just a bunch of old farts runnin around in their old junk". I unfortunately have not read up on your IT2 proposal, so must plead ignorance, but again, I agree that some process needs to be established to move things forward in an orderly fashion as technology progresses.

I am no doubt an out-lier in this group, I race 2-3 times a year, and have nowhere near the knowledge or time/$ to invest compared with most posters here. I fell into a car and off I went. I was just breezin thru this thread and just got the feeling, as I have from a lot of the IT classification discussions, that it does center around "my car is unfairly classed, make it equal to the fastest ones" thought process, which as you and I seem to agree, eventually leads to a never-ending morass (pun intended!) of band-aid fixes.

I'm thankful for the opportunity to play, help when I can and try to get others involved as well. A lot of GOOD things ARE happening, thanks to people "agitating" in a constructive way. Change is always painful, and we are just imperfect people trying hard.

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Steve
[email protected]
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/jake7140" TARGET=_blank>My racing page
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Now as quanity of the newer cars come into the class the average will go up even more. I think that the cars like the Neon will be faster then the 7 or the MR2, as more and more of those cars get built the other cars will move further back and further back.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Darin has stated that the cars targeted for ITA are being measured against the performance of the top cars (CRX, 240, Acura, etc.). It's not necessarily going lower the fast lap times, but it will certainly shift the mean closer to the low end.

Kirk's right, the top of ITA is rapidly becomming IT2 (forget the original concepts of what the class would be)

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
First, two comments
1. Please let’s stop worrying about the imaginary people in ITC running imaginary VW Beetles and the imaginary people who are building IT Hyundai’s and wish to be competitive. Just not happening guys! (Darin HAS made his point)
2. Please stop inferring that the people in ITA and ITB are pissed off by the recent reclassings. EVERYONE I've talked to who actually races in ITA and ITB – both overdogs and underdogs are very happy with the reclasses. I’m talking total approval. It’s good for all the classes. And no, I don’t count opinions grumpy people who don’t race in IT.
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I hate to say it - but this is getting boring. This has been spelled out so many times before, and the answer is so clear.

Let’s move on and start a running list of ITS cars that should go to ITA, ITA cars that should go to ITB, and ITB cars that should go to ITC. Let’s use our collective judgment (and theories) and figure out what would work. (maybe time for a new thread?)
 
Originally posted by Jake:

Let’s move on and start a running list of ITS cars that should go to ITA, ITA cars that should go to ITB, and ITB cars that should go to ITC. Let’s use our collective judgment (and theories) and figure out what would work. (maybe time for a new thread?)

But remember that we are not going to move only old Capri poking around at the back of the ITA field, we are only going to move RX7's becuase there are so many of them.....remember this. I still think that the best two options are to re-write all of the classes or to combine B&C, I have a feeling that if a re-write happend it would look like this. Correct me if I am wrong but is not Prod talking about doing something like this with their "lower classes", for the same reasons...poor car turn out "wasted class". There are not too many cars that can be put in C that where made in the last 10yrs....So combine the two classes give the C cars a bone and the A&S guys will have 3 classes to play in.
And I am sorry but what ever you put in B is going to do the same thing that Bill talked about
"cars targeted for ITA are being measured against the performance of the top cars (CRX, 240, Acura, etc.)." How many A cars would be a mid pack car in B? And why move so I could be a mid pack car in another class, thats what I am in a faster class right? So if I am a mid pack car in a faster class I should be a top car in the slower class. So you move the slower A cars to B and you have the same thing happening in B, then you move the slow B cars to C and then where do those slow C cars go...oh I forgot there arn't any, so lets move all the B cars to C.
I doubt anything will happen other then one car here and one car there...more band-aids, besides it gives us something to gripe about while we are waiting on parts to show up via UPS
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Originally posted by Knestis:
My point was that SOMEONE ought to be keeping an eye on the strategic picture.

That SOMEONE is the ITAC. You may not agree with everything we do, and not every move is a strategic one, but that doesn't mean we are not looking at longer term strategy.

Furthermore, why don't you volunter to be one of those "someones?"

Originally posted by Knestis:
The IT2 proposal asked for proactive strategy to address the problem of the ITS orphans. It wasn't within the "me first" paradigm so it went nowhere

NO! We've had this discussions many times in the past, both before and after I joined the ITAC. The reason it went nowhere is because it did not fit within the structure of IT. It would have required a hacking up of IT as it existed at the time (and today to a lesser extent) and its own set of rules. THAT is why it went nowhere. Don't keep saying it's for God knows whatever reasons. It's just not true.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Cher - first, your old car class just doesn't make sense. I for one DON'T give a rats arse if a Opel GT and a 16V Prelude duke it out in ITB. Or if a 240ZX an a 13B RX7 duke it out in ITS. Old and new can get along if we do this right.

As for combining B+C, almost, but there are some top B cars that are on par with bottom A cars (remember your Capri) so why not let them duke it out together.

Your point about only cars with a following getting reclassed is a good one, that is why I'm proposing that WE create a comprehensive proposal and submit it collectively for the CB to review. The CB will not move cars without requests. And since so few Capri's are running, nobody is requsting a move. But guess what - you don't need to drive a Capri to ask for a move.

So in the interests of being fair, let's create a comprehensive proposal and see first if it makes sense to us, and then submit it for the CB and ITAC to mull over.

C'mon guys, 914's? AE86? Capri? Fiero? Mustang?
 
Originally posted by Geo:
NO! We've had this discussions many times in the past, both before and after I joined the ITAC. The reason it went nowhere is because it did not fit within the structure of IT. It would have required a hacking up of IT as it existed at the time (and today to a lesser extent) and its own set of rules. THAT is why it went nowhere. Don't keep saying it's for God knows whatever reasons. It's just not true.




George,

Just get over yourself. The request was made to add a new class. No IT2 'rules' or anything, just add another class between ITS and ITA. It was shot down, period. The reasoning was that PCA's would 'fix' things, and there was no need for another class. Please quit making things up!!!

I would really like someone to explain to me how the whole selective reclassification thing is better/easier than adding another class. With a new class, you don't have to worry if Car X is 'too fast' for Class Y. You don't have to get into things like moving one version of a car, but not the other (e.g. A3 Jetta vs. Golf, FX16 vs. MR2 and AE86 Corolla.

I don't think there's anyone out there (well, maybe George and Darin
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) that don't believe there are orphan ITS cars and overdog ITA cars. It seems simple, as the performance level of the overdog ITA cars has already been established, as it's being used to measure the orphan ITS cars against. There's the performance envelope for the new class.

I really don't understand what the resistence to a new class is, unless of course, the addition of a new class is somehow perceived as an admission of past fault. How is the addition of a new class anything but a win-win situation? The orphaned ITS cars are now competitive, the orphaned ITA cars are now competitive, and the ITA overdogs now have more cars to race with.


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Jake:
Cher - first, your old car class just doesn't make sense. I for one DON'T give a rats arse if a Opel GT and a 16V Prelude duke it out in ITB. Or if a 240ZX an a 13B RX7 duke it out in ITS. Old and new can get along if we do this right.


So in the interests of being fair, let's create a comprehensive proposal and see first if it makes sense to us, and then submit it for the CB and ITAC to mull over.

C'mon guys, 914's? AE86? Capri? Fiero? Mustang?

Bingo! Not only is there no reason old and new can't play together, I think seeing old and new duking it out makes for a great show! There is little in the way to keep this from happening. Physics is physics...

The reasons old cars are in trouble are two fold: One is the mistaken assumptions made by the classing commitees to potential performance improvements, and the resultant mis-setting of either weights or classes. Secondly, post classsification rules changes that benefit newer technology cars have reshuffled the deck as well.

I'll use the CRX as an example, as it has been mentioned as the straw that started the ITA paradigm shift. What if it was classified at a heaver weight? And what if they never opened up ECU rules? What would ITA look like? Well, following classifications would not have been made that were attempts to level the field at the new higher performance level, and we would see greater parity.

New vs. old is a red herring here folks, proper analysis during the classification process, or the ability to fix mistakes later is the secret to success.

On to the next point and, the next page...

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited May 15, 2004).]
 
Excellent points made regading a larger picture request made to the CRB and ITAC that would adress the move of models to new classes.

But I see two issues....

One, any car moved should not be an overdog in the new class, and two, is it appropriate to move cars that are not known quantities? Cars that are run in such low numbers that it is impossible to ascertain their level of prep, driver quality and legality? I do not think it is.

A major hindrince in determining this information it the lack of comprehensive results. In the poking around I've done, I wind up being frustrated by the lack of results available, and more imortantly, by the quality of the results I can find. Often the car isn't listed! Or if it is, its by manufacturer only!

If we are going to present a comprehensive list of cars to be reclassed, adjusted or whatever, we need datasets to do our homework

The autocross guys have been keeping track of this for a looooong time.

I would like someone with a good understanding of the inner workings of the information flow within the club to speak as to the reasons this is an issue. I had heard rumours that submission of regional results was boing to start, but I am not sure if it is true.

If it is, the results should list very specific car information...make, model, sub model, and year....OR the clasification page and line, so there is no doubt as to the car in question. And qualification time and place should be implemented as a column or tow as well.

What will it take to get this implemented. I know that all the info is there, and that with the one click technolog we possess it should be a slam dunk.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited May 15, 2004).]
 
sorry, mis post- hit "quote" instead of "edit" grrrrr...

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited May 15, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:

I really don't understand what the resistence to a new class is, unless of course, the addition of a new class is somehow perceived as an admission of past fault.


No matter what Bill, you always seem to harp, center, and positively cling to the desire to jump up and down in an attempt to discredit the happenings in the past. What is the pleasure you derive from doing this?

Look, if they didn't want to bring attention to past errors, would PCAs ever have made it to even the discussion stage, much less the proposal on the books that is the single greatest change the IT category has EVER seen???? Huh? Would it? NO! Of course not! Lets move on......sheeeesh!

Why sould, or shouldn't there be a new IT class? Well, in my opinion, I don't think we have, as a group, shown proper utilization of what we have, and personally, I think we, as a group, can show the guys in GT and Prod how it can be done. One look at the joke that GT and Prod has become is enough reason for me to be hapy working with what we have.

IF after we do some re-orging, and get the inter clsss distribution more appropriate, and we have determined that within the rule structure that we have too much performance difference to equitably spread over four classes, then I would entertain another class, but at this point we haven't come close to proving that, either on paper or on the track.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
I really don't get what the year of the car has to do with anything. The idea that new and older cars can't run together and be competitive with each other is complete nonsense.

If there was a 1995 car with a min. weight of 2,450 lbs, 130 HP; another 1985 car with 2,450 lbs, 130 HP. Also, both cars have very similar performance potential, ect. So both cars shouldn't be in the same class? Oh, and yeah the newer car should be in the lower class. Why would looking at the car and its potential and classification have anything to do with the age of the car.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
George,

Just get over yourself.

You first.
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Originally posted by Bill Miller:
The request was made to add a new class. No IT2 'rules' or anything, just add another class between ITS and ITA. It was shot down, period. The reasoning was that PCA's would 'fix' things, and there was no need for another class. Please quit making things up!!!

Talk about making things up! IT2 does indeed require a different rule set and it was not simply for a class between ITS and ITA.

You don't actually know anything behind any of the decisions that were made so all you are left with is making things up.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by lateapex911:
Why sould, or shouldn't there be a new IT class? Well, in my opinion, I don't think we have, as a group, shown proper utilization of what we have, and personally, I think we, as a group, can show the guys in GT and Prod how it can be done.

Wow Jake, those are some of the wisest words I've seen on this site.



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
People - lets stop fighting and start making a proposal.

Bill - if you read my posts about 14,000 posts ago, I totally agreed with the idea of another class. However, the more I thought about it, the back half of ITA in their own group would still not be as fast as the top ITB cars. That's why I don't see a reason not to let them run together as ITB. Furthermore, I have yet to meet anyone from lower classes who are unhappy with getting new competitive blood - everyone I've heard from seems happy with it. (we aren't running nationally, and we aren't running for money guys!)

Jake - good point about cars that are unknowns. However, I still think we should do a conservative propsal that is inclusive. I think many are getting tired about seeing the 88 Platypus GT getting reclasses while the 89 Platypus GT (that is almost identical) doesn't.

<--- Kirk hat on.

There are many reasons why we shouldn't look at results to suggest reclassing. Let's try to distinguish vehicles that are directly comparable to vehicles in lower classes. i.e. The Scirocco is in B by the Rabbit is in C even though they are the same weight and engine etc. Or if there is a vehicle from another make that has very similar specs in the class below.

[This message has been edited by Jake (edited May 15, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by Jake:
Jake - good point about cars that are unknowns. However, I still think we should do a conservative propsal that is inclusive.

May I suggest that the best time for such a proposal would be after the August BoD meeting when we find out if the pending rule changes actually become a done deal.

That said, some discussion on the topic is always a good thing.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by Geo:
Talk about making things up! IT2 does indeed require a different rule set and it was not simply for a class between ITS and ITA.

You don't actually know anything behind any of the decisions that were made so all you are left with is making things up.



George,

There was another request, made by someone else, to add a new class. It had nothing to do w/ IT2, and was shot down w/ the reason that PCAs would eliminate the need for a new class. I didn't make that up, it was printed in FasTrack!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
When it all comes down to the end as long as I have a place to run I will be happy, just don't take that away, I don't plan on going to the ARRC or anything, I am just going to hand around my area and have fun with my car my family, and the racers in this area, If I am on the track and my car does not get broken then I am having fun. As someone said we do this for the fun of it. If I want more out of racing I will move to Prod life seems more ?serious? there, with the possible fame, and loss of the rest of my fortune
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. But now I am happy in IT, no matter what happens, as long as they don't take away cars that are already classed.

It is just fun to be part of these debates...what else am I going to do when I have to work on a Sunday
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