The new ITA class

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Originally posted by Asok #25:
Andy

Look at the track records for VIR
www.ncrscca.com

I am not saying the RX-7 is the best ITA car it's just a good ITA car. There are several modles that are far less competitive, but only a few much more.
Click to expand...

Looked - can't find the records...more specific link?

I agree, the RX-7 is probably the 5th or 6th best ITA car, right now. Add the Neon, SE-R, 16V GTI 2.0, etc and then where does it end up?

I think it's FIRMLY in the MIDDLE of ITA, not competitive when you compare apples to apples but not a throw away either.

So what do you do with it? I say that in the best interest of the hundreds that are out there, you try and make it fit better. DOn't make it a killer, just try and make it fit. It's not a political move, it's a move (IMHO) that makes IT a better alternative than going to Prod or GT.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited April 08, 2004).]
 
Andy,
The ARRC is not the best source of data. Yeah, best single race of data. I'll conceed to that. But the best source of data is all of the other races run during the year. I would certainly imagine that the racers who enter in the ARRC also race during the year at their "home" track.

Lets just say that Joe from CA makes the trip to the ARRC and has very little if no track time there. Yeah, so it is just a bit of a tow, but go with me on this one. You think that he (or she) will do as good as someone equally talented whose home track is road atlanta? Of course not. Yes the ARRC is the championship race. But if it were on the west coast, do you think the winners would be much different? And isn't that why the runoffs are in OH?

I'm just saying that yes, look at the ARRC but really look at the other several hundred races being run much more. All right, I'll stop going off topic. I do also realize that the board looks at much more than just the ARRC...

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
How about we look to the Pro Spec Miata results from the East coast, from the West coast & from the bell ringer final in central USA at Topeka ? The top guns are the top guns no matter where they go.
wink.gif


Why would it be any different with any other IT race class ?

David
 
I do agree that the ARRC MAY not prove who the best of the best in IT really is. Hopefully no one takes this the wrong way...
Obviously for people in the West coast and Mid-west (as well as other areas) it is extremely difficult to make it to Atlanta. So I'm not sure you can honestly say it represents the of the fastest cars in the country. Again, not taking away from the event or drivers who win / do well at the event. So I don't think you can use that as the bible for how well cars may or may not do.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

Why is the ARRC considered "the best of the best?" Without and invitation/points system, it is just another regional that gets well traveled too.
I do agree that it truly comes down to the track. My Saturn does great on some tracks but not so good on others. That's racing.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com


This is a good point to make. How do you contend a fact unless all the champions from each region compete?

Every time I want to make any comparisons I usually look at ECR results. To me that gives a better "True to life" look at how one car does against another.

To me a sprint race (SARRC) does not really give you the opportunity to "Race" I think a longer race 1hr+ gives a better view of a cars ability.

And hopefully I will get the chance to run the ARRC one time. Unfortunately every time I plan on going I am not lucky enough to keep my car from being trashed before the race is run.

And as far as a 1st Gen RX7 being competitive in ITA.....it can hold it's own. I started driving mine when they were in ITS. If they make the mistake of putting it in ITB they better add 200# because I'm already 100# over to start with. And my practice rims are 6" and they make very little difference in lap times.
 
Dave,

That is what I was trying to say. The best SINGLE point of reference - but not the total package...

David,

PRO Spec Miata....PRO = Money. Money = Best available.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Dave Gran wrote "Obviously for people in the West coast and Mid-west (as well as other areas) it is extremely difficult to make it to Atlanta. So I'm not sure you can honestly say it represents the of the fastest cars in the country"

Actually its a pretty good representation, the fastest ITA on the west coast finished 4th at the ARRC in a CRX, Im 3-4 seconds a lap behind him on a normal day in my rx7.
 
Andy,

I've essentially operationalized the term "IT2" as the label for the class that is defined by the upper end of ITA and the lower end of ITS. My bad for assuming that anyone else had done that.

The cars that have been moved to ITA are being directly compared to the physical characteristics of the 240SX, the CRX, and the Acura Integra that are currently classified there... These cars define the class...
Click to expand...

Darin, see my earlier comment re: IT 2. And, nice of you to let the Mazda/VW/BMW/Toyota/etc. folks know where they stand.

Also, why do we even need PCA's when the CB will adjust weights of cars now?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Andy,

I've essentially operationalized the term "IT2" as the label for the class that is defined by the upper end of ITA and the lower end of ITS. My bad for assuming that anyone else had done that.

Darin, see my earlier comment re: IT 2. And, nice of you to let the Mazda/VW/BMW/Toyota/etc. folks know where they stand.

Also, why do we even need PCA's when the CB will adjust weights of cars now?
Click to expand...

Bill, you are really a negative guy. Is everything OK?

I now understand the IT2 reference. It was probably me that was making wrong assumptions.

What Darin means, to be so specific that NOBODY could misinterpret, is that the CRX, 240SX and Integra are the upper level, the benchmarks if you will. Anything that would exceed this performance envelope would not be a real consideration for ITA.

Write your letter to the CRB on the VW's weight if you want. We gave you the info as we know it. Errors and ommissions. Say it out-loud 10 times.

Shooting the messenger isn't becoming of you.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Originally posted by Hotshoe:
If they make the mistake of putting it in ITB they better add 200# because I'm already 100# over to start with.
Click to expand...

See there... this is the kind of crap that drives me up the wall... On one side, we have someone saying they can't make weight... and on MY side, I have friends who raced ITA RX-7s that had to fill the spare with sand and leave in the passenger seats to not be BELOW minimum weight...

WHICH is it, guys??
confused.gif




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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
Wow, a lot happened in a day.

Darin - I'm guessing Hotshoe isn't the slender type.

I think Bill needs to get some.
 
I guess I should have made myself clear. My 1st Gen Rx7 usually finishes in the top three in ITA and almost always in the top five in ITS and I'm 100# over weight. And that to me is no problem.

But if they change my class to ITB it is going to take more than 200# to slow me down from my weight of 2380# when I already weigh 2480#.

Another 100# will not make that big of a difference. I usually add 100# to my car for the start of an ECR and turn laps within .3 of my qualifying lap.

So for your information, I for one am not complaining about making weight, I couldn't care less. But if they made the change I know a lot of other people would be.

FYI : Rick Thompson 6'3" 225#
#99 IT7 Mazda RX7

[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited April 08, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by Jake:
Darin - I'm guessing Hotshoe isn't the slender type.

Hotshoe stats:
Rick Thompson 6'3" 225#
#99 IT7 Mazda RX7
Click to expand...

Careful Jake... Hotshoe and I are about the same size!
wink.gif


Rick,
Thanks for the candor... It's good to hear from someone who is actually FINE with the RX-7 where it is for a change...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
Darin:

Thanks....I'm very happy with the placement of my RX7. Problem is a few are not, It must be the cars fault?

It has taken me seven seasons to get my car as competitive as it is. And it is not all car..............
 
Where to start on this....

OK, the ARRCS. Dave (Gran) I see your point, but consider this. Anthony Serra went to the ARRCs this year, never been before. Test day Thursday (sorry Anthony...) he was, shall we say, unhappy. Made a few changes, and by the end of the race, he had set the fastest race lap, nearly broken the record held by the untouchable (pro driver) Bob Stretch. Lets hope he has lerned that track, cuz if he's got more, we're all in trouble.

Also, while there are no guarantees, the impound at the ARRCs is ALOT tighter than probably anywhere else. (I'm not saying that all the cars were 100% legal, but it is MUCH more likely)

Daryls point is very well taken. I was about the same amount off the pace percentagewise at the ARRCS as I was against Anthony at LRP and NHIS. Which is, unfortunately, quite a bit.

yes, of course certain cars do better on certain tracks. I can almost keep up with underprepared cars on some tracks better than others.

Weight. I can get under weight by about 50 pounds legally. 100? well, sure, if I leave the exhaust off! Most RX-s should be able to do so as well.

Rick, I am impressed. It appears you have a better handle on the physics than most. Care to divulge your dyno numbers?
This brings up an interesting point. Physics.
Lets look at some numbers.

CRX: 2140 pounds. 125-8 plus KNOWN Hp. Drivability, semi tricky, according to worst case reports. Suspension: good. Power availability: good.

RX-7: 2380 pounds. 120-125 Hp. Suspension: Big ole live rear axle, struts. Power delivery: a wind up toy. Divability: semi tricky to tricky, again depending on whos reporting.

How can a car running on the same tires with the same wheel size possibly keep up with a car with a better suspension, that is reportedly easier to drive, and weighs 240 pounds LESS? (thats about 10%!) It shouldn't and it can't.

Results? Can't comment on the west coast anomolies as we have no idea of the prep levels and legality of some of the players. I do know this. At the ARRCs, the IT7 fast lap was set by the RX-7 guru, Jim Susko. The GM chassis and handling engineer who has nearly redesigned his cars suspension, and sells the parts though his company, G-Force Engineering. And he has done a ton of dyno work with the engine, utilizing some pretty imaginative concepts. He can drive too, obviously. Was he competitive with ITA? Um... not hardly, and he says that mirrors his normal results. In discussions with him, he has commented over and over that the car is way out of its element going against well prepped CRXs, Integra and 240sxs.

Now add the newbies from ITS and the car is, at best, the 8th ranked car in the class.


Trust me, a legal RX-7 will be hard pressed to win or even contend for a win should any well prepped and driven examples of the top 8 show.

Around here, that means that as it stands now, as soon as the new blood starts running, a top 15 will be an awesome finish.




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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Andy,

Call it whatever you want. If "Errors and Ommissions" works for you, use it. My contention is, if they want to use that as a crutch, they need to tell people how the weights are determined in the first place.

Let's take a walk down memory lane. About 2.5 (maybe more) years ago, there was a request in FasTrack to have the weight determination process for IT published. The response was that it had been sent to the ITAC for investigation. Now, fast-foward to the present. You, Darin, and George have stated that the ITAC doesn't set the weights (and never has) for IT cars, the CB does. So, why was the initial request for the process even sent to the ITAC 'for investigation', if the ITAC didn't set the weights?

As far as you speaking for Darin, a large part of the problem is Darin's use of vocabulary and language. Time and time again, he says one thing, and means something else. I'm sorry, but when you say that the top dogs in a class 'define' that class, you've pretty much said that the cars that don't meet the top dog's level of performance are essentially field-fillers.

Jake (not Gulik),

Could you be anymore of an asshole if you tried?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
jeez bill, will you just chill out a little.

yes setting weights in the past was smoke and mirrors. a method for correcting this is in the offing due to hard work from the current players. nothing is gained by holding a grudge. reparation are not going to happen.
dick patullo
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
As far as you speaking for Darin, a large part of the problem is Darin's use of vocabulary and language.
Click to expand...

confused.gif
... Uh, Bill... Oh... Nevermind....


Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I'm sorry, but when you say that the top dogs in a class 'define' that class, you've pretty much said that the cars that don't meet the top dog's level of performance are essentially field-fillers.
Click to expand...

Your words... not mine... Suffice it to say that we are interested in the limits... specifically, in the cases considered, the upper limit... a class is defined by it's bounds. If one is interested in NOT creating a new "overdog", then the upper bound is likely a good place to consider... And if one is interested in classifying cars that have a shot at competing, then again, one might want to consider the upper limit...

There isn't much we can do right now about the cars that make up the middle of the pack... and without PCAs, we can't do much about the upper limit.


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited April 09, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited April 09, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Andy,

Call it whatever you want. If "Errors and Ommissions" works for you, use it. My contention is, if they want to use that as a crutch, they need to tell people how the weights are determined in the first place.
Click to expand...

You say this like it's not a legitimate thing. I will leave it at that.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Let's take a walk down memory lane.  About 2.5 (maybe more) years ago, there was a request in FasTrack to have the weight determination process for IT published.  The response was that it had been sent to the ITAC for investigation.  Now, fast-foward to the present.  You, Darin, and George have stated that the ITAC doesn't set the weights (and never has) for IT cars, the CB does.  So, why was the initial request for the process even sent to the ITAC 'for investigation', if the ITAC didn't set the weights?</font>
Click to expand...

We have stated this before. The original request to develop this was never added to our agenda. Bottom line is simple - and whether you like it or not, this is it - most of us feel that it is NOT in the best interest of the membership to publish any type of formula. The answer that was given in Fast Track in response to a similar request is sufficient. The process is too subjective and will open up pandoras box. THIS too has been debated and stated in another thread. If this doesn't work for you, vote in a new wave of Directors and appoint a new CRB and new ITAC memebers. We are doing what we feel is right and if the membership thinks we suck, then you have every right to replace us.

{Darin-bashing deleated}

I'm sorry, but when you say that the top dogs in a class 'define' that class, you've pretty much said that the cars that don't meet the top dog's level of performance are essentially field-fillers.
Click to expand...

You want me to sugar coat it for you? If you need that, let me know. IT has no guarantee of competivness, so it is logical to assume that SOME cars may not be the class of the class? You want a Prod-syle attempt at full-blown CA's? Doubt it - but when you say something like this, you sure seem irked at the big picture. You don't think that when that ITS TR8 was being built that the owner KNEW it was going to be an underdog? People know these things, Bill.

The recent recommendations for moves have taken (using your words) the ITA 'field fillers' and given them a fighting chance. These were the most glaring issues out there. There are more and we will work on them proactively and reactively. Some will complain - most (we hope) will agree it's best for everyone - and that is the ultimate goal.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
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