Time to write those letters - Head and Neck Restraints

After all I've been around so long I can remember the battle uproar when Fire extinquishers were first mandated.:)

Requiring folks to carry an extinguisher is stupid and does nothing for my safety. The only reason I need a system is if I'm trapped/incapacitated in the car and it is on fire. In that instance, the chances of being able to use the bottle are almost nil. If the car is on fire, I'm out of it.

On the otherhand, requiring extinguisher systems makes sense.

BTW - the GCR as written does not require or allow the use of either in an IT car. IIDSYCorMTYC.
 
So none of you think that the manufacture could have spent sometime and redesigned the product to meet the specs. This has been going on for nearly a half decade, I really think they could have done something to meet the specs if they wanted to.

Stephen
Duh.

  • 4 May 2005, Wayne State University crash lab, Test #NC149, NASCAR offset protocol.
  • 29 September 2005, Delphi Safety Systems crash lab, Test #IS59F010, SFI 38.1 offset protocol.
The Isaac design modified to meet the SFI spec worked rather well at the WSU lab, but not at the Delphi lab where the belts came off -- just like a HANS device.

You wouldn't detune a Ferrari to meet a Yugo spec. Why would you detune an Isaac to meet an SFI spec? What good thing happens? We sell more stuff and kill drivers? Sorry, SFI needs us more than we need SFI.
 
Stephen, think about Greggs case. He modified his product, tested it, and got inferior results to what he had, and was selling.

You DO see that a jury, in a case against him, would look at that information, and rip him a new one, as he chose to sell a product that he KNEW was inferior to the one he already sold. You have to admit, if it was YOUR life on the line in that courtroom, you'd think VERY hard before making and selling something you KNEW had issues, irregardless of the actual drivers and in field performance.

Bigger picture here, Stephen, if the HANS people had written the spec in a more open manner, this issue would be less likely to exist at all. But they wrote it with clear market limiting intentions, just as SFI empowers, and encourages them to do. And we, the HANS buying SCCA driver, pumps money and makes that relationship and system work, all the way to the bank, or in Arnies case, his Newport Beach CA home.

SFI acts like the white knight, parading around telling us how we are all safe, thanks to the charity of Arnie, yet, in reality, acts in ways to to limit our safety.

It's a shame Snell isn't a broader organization, they seem to have a better model.
 
though i am rarely with Kirk (he is usually half a lap ahead...), i think we really have to be thinking down the road.

and what is down that road?

what good is a FIA/SFI belt and a FIA/SFI H&NR when it is all connected to a SCCA certified roll cage?

so regardless of if there have been no cage failures or when one does occur due to shoddy workmanship, we will likely all have to get new cages even though the one we have is built to the same performance standard.

afterall, NHRA and tractor pulling has SFI cage designs out there. and it would seem that given the herd mentality, we would be follwing the tractors, right? or given the strengh of some of these tractors, why wouldn't SCCA get pulled into this line of thinking?

didn't someone in this thread just build/prep another car? was the cage built to FIA standards by an FIA certified shop? given the direction things are going, why would anyone not go with the FIA design? :shrug:
 
I thought about the SFI cage case, Tom, but I went with the wheel example because I was HOPING it would be closer to believable to the uninitiated - but you are SPOT ON.

In publishing its determination on the H&N rule, the Board went on record as saying, "We will not write our own safety rules" - but they do just that for cages. You're right about that probably being the next target...

K
 
<raises hand>

Here's another budget-constrained racer that may very well not be racing next year, unless I decide to travel to Michigan to run with the Council instead of SCCA.
And I already own an HNR system (first gen Link) and have taken a close look at my safety in the car (have since the day I built it) and installed other devices in a manner I believe is safe for the risks that I take (and am willing to deal with).

<lowers hand>
 
I thought about the SFI cage case, Tom, but I went with the wheel example because I was HOPING it would be closer to believable to the uninitiated - but you are SPOT ON.

In publishing its determination on the H&N rule, the Board went on record as saying, "We will not write our own safety rules" - but they do just that for cages. You're right about that probably being the next target...

K

continuing with this theory: Could they find a way to grandfather the old NON-SFI cars, similar to how older cars have been grandfathered through the various cage rules revisions to date? the hypocrisy there - that a "who knows" cage that already existed is effectively as good as a shiny new one that is SFI certified, but that a shiny new NOT SFI certified cage is somehow unsafe - would be hard for even our membership to ignore. The rate of new builds would fall and people would take their ball and play on another field. If they did not grandfather then I'm pretty sure the defection at that point would be sufficient to start a new car club or turn a more agreeable organization (NASA?) into the preffered stomping grounds overnight.
 
they couldn't find a way to "grandfather" folks with non SFI Isaacs that meets an industry level of performance, so why would that apply?
 
they couldn't find a way to "grandfather" folks with non SFI Isaacs that meets an industry level of performance, so why would that apply?

I think that mandating a cert on a previously not required piece of equipment is substantially different than mandating that all (or at least a very large percentage, approaching 100%) current cages be removed and rebuilt by a certified fabricator. and lets not forget the "real" SCCA cars which are mostly tube frames (old FA, FC, FF, F500, FV, GT). It would effectively be like saying "All tubeframe cars currently existant are hereby forbidden, and you caged tub guys better go back to stage 1 and rebuild, too! now hurry up, nationals start in January." they might as well mail out NASA membership applications with the sportscar rag that month.
 
I want whatever H&N device David Reutimann was wearing during the last lap crash at WGI yesterday. I've never seen a car in so many different positions(vertical and horizontal) before it came to rest. Granted, those guys all have halo seats....but still! There are a bunch of threads on YOUTUBE for those interested.
 
And you should be given that choice, just as other choices should be available for members to make when trying to protect themselves.

All of this doesn't matter now though, at least for the time being.
 
I want whatever H&N device David Reutimann was wearing during the last lap crash at WGI yesterday. I've never seen a car in so many different positions(vertical and horizontal) before it came to rest. Granted, those guys all have halo seats....but still! There are a bunch of threads on YOUTUBE for those interested.
The dramatic crashes tend to burn off a lot of kinetic energy from flipping and flopping. It's doubtful the loads were that high.
 
And you should be given that choice, just as other choices should be available for members to make when trying to protect themselves.

All of this doesn't matter now though, at least for the time being.

Dave..It would be interesting to hear from "survivors" from all this road rash, see what they were wearing for H&N(and seats,webbing), then see what what brands they used and to what extent(if any) they were injured. That should be the benchmark for the insurance companies, SCCA.SFI,NASA,drag racing,blah,blah.
Not politics and payoffs to use their products.:dead_horse:
 
ONLY if the crashes were logged with full data, otherwise it's akin to saying, "Wow, that looked bad, that thing must have saved his life".
Greggs exactly right, that incident was complex, but low level. And it would be work to seperate out the different devices contributions.

The best way is repeatable lab testing, trying many combinations.

Seriously, comparing that event to our world is a stretch. Our cars, our seats, our containments are not anything like that.

It's like the guy who buys the Downhill XP for skis because Klaus Super G Edgemeister uses them, or the duffer who plays Michelsons ball.

But, a larger point regarding that idea is that how will that serve to increase our choices?? All the sanctioning bodies you mention have very limited options.
 
Last edited:
well gentlemen, i received my official email from the SCCA today and it states that in 1-1-12 it is mandatory to have a HANS device. Sure do wish we had more choices.
 
Last edited:
well gentlemen, i received my official email from the SCCA today and it states that in 1-1-12 it is mandatory to have a HANS device. Sure do wish we had more choices.

My letter/email said this:


Which products are approved?
Like many of its equipment requirements, SCCA recognizes both SFI 38.1 (www.sfifoundation.com) and FIA 8858 (www.fia.com) standards. You can visit these sites to see their approved list of devices. As of Aug. 10, 2011, the following devices are currently approved by SFI or both SFI and FIA:

HANS Performance Products – HANS Device (all series)
Safety Solutions R3 Device
Safety Solutions R3 Rage Device
Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid Pro Device
Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid Pro Rage Device
Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid/Hybrid Rage Device
Safety Solutions Hybrid X Device

For more information about these products, including a list of dealers for each, visit:
- www.hansdevice.com
- www.safetysolutionsracing.com
-
**If your Head and Neck device is not on the above list of current approved devices, but does have the appropriate certification sticker from a past approval, then you will be considered compliant.
 
well gentlemen, i received my official email from the SCCA today and it states that in 1-1-12 it is mandatory to have a HANS device. Sure do wish we had more choices.

your email said a HANS was mandated? are you sure? thats not what i got.
 
The email SCCA to Stewards and Scutineers did NOT state just a HAN's is mandatory - it gave the list show up above as long as it has the "sticker"
 
Back
Top