RSTPerformance
New member
You're absolutely right, it's a shoe in. Onto thinking about how I can beat the other ITB drivers attending the event.
[/b]
Yeah Like my brother...
Value in creating a new heavily entry level / budget focused category?
- Thread starter gran racing
- Start date
Yeah Like my brother...
IT used to be cheap because it was new, not because the rules were different.
We didn't do a lot of the things we COULD do, because we didn't NEED to. Build an actual engine rather than run the one that was in it when you drove that Rabbit to school? No way. Spend money welding in a real rollcage when you could bolt in an Autopower in one Saturday, with time for beer breaks and trips to Ernst Hardware for more 3/8" drill bits? That would be silly. The guys up front could be there because they were the early adopters.
We also didn't have the opportunity to spend dough on things, because some of them just weren't available. Choice of diffs ($500-1000) - nope. Open or welded. Bin of 2.25" springs of different rates? Uh-uh. One set, off-the-shelf "race springs" for the stock-style Koni Sports. Bushings? What are bushings, again? You can't buy what isn't available, and pretty much none of us had the wherewithal to actually MAKE stuff.
Then that changed, gradually, as competition improved the quality of the front end of the grid. Competition. On the track and in the marketplace.
We could start spec Kia, on Chinese snow tires with claimer engines. It would stay cheap until someone started to care. Until TWO DRIVERS started to care, anyway.
K
We didn't do a lot of the things we COULD do, because we didn't NEED to. Build an actual engine rather than run the one that was in it when you drove that Rabbit to school? No way. Spend money welding in a real rollcage when you could bolt in an Autopower in one Saturday, with time for beer breaks and trips to Ernst Hardware for more 3/8" drill bits? That would be silly. The guys up front could be there because they were the early adopters.
We also didn't have the opportunity to spend dough on things, because some of them just weren't available. Choice of diffs ($500-1000) - nope. Open or welded. Bin of 2.25" springs of different rates? Uh-uh. One set, off-the-shelf "race springs" for the stock-style Koni Sports. Bushings? What are bushings, again? You can't buy what isn't available, and pretty much none of us had the wherewithal to actually MAKE stuff.
Then that changed, gradually, as competition improved the quality of the front end of the grid. Competition. On the track and in the marketplace.
We could start spec Kia, on Chinese snow tires with claimer engines. It would stay cheap until someone started to care. Until TWO DRIVERS started to care, anyway.
K
gran racing
Super Moderator
I do agree with what you are saying Kirk, but still tend to believe there are ways to prevent people from wanting to spend much money in a particular class. This might not be the best example, but... In the autocross events that I've partipated in that utilize a novice class, they like being there for a little while then want to play with the other drivers. Basically it involves creating a place where there is no (or very little) prestigue in winning those classes. I'm having a difficult time putting it into words effectively. When looking at a front running IT driver, it would be like "wow, they've got a well sorted out car and can drive the heck out of it." For this other group it would be "good driving. So when are you going to make the step up?" Some will say that exists now, but I don't see that being the case.
Dave, you simply cannot create a class to keep people from spending as money as they want to win (keyword: "want"). 100+ years of motorsports history supports this.
You can't even do it with a spec class (e.g, Spec Miata, Spec Racer Ford, etc).
You can't do it with Regional vs. National classifications (e.g., witness the money spent in IT, or money spent only on Regional races in dual-classed categories).
You can't do it with a claimer process (witness: money spent on a new engine every time one is claimed).
The *only* way to even *attempt* to do this is by the sanctioning body owning, maintaining, shipping, and leasing all vehicles (e.g., Barber series) but now you're talking expensive leasing fees for the driver.
See that keyword above, "want"? What you're asking is 'how do we have a competition where no one wants to be competitive?'
It's. Just. Not. Possible.
Example: Just wait 'til I get tired of spending money in ITA and decide to move to a class where the prep level is currently slightly less and there's some cherries available for picking.
Like ITC. Or maybe ITB...
Any debate on whether the pointy-end speed of the class will suddenly increase?
I'd love to discuss it with you over drinks.
You can't even do it with a spec class (e.g, Spec Miata, Spec Racer Ford, etc).
You can't do it with Regional vs. National classifications (e.g., witness the money spent in IT, or money spent only on Regional races in dual-classed categories).
You can't do it with a claimer process (witness: money spent on a new engine every time one is claimed).
The *only* way to even *attempt* to do this is by the sanctioning body owning, maintaining, shipping, and leasing all vehicles (e.g., Barber series) but now you're talking expensive leasing fees for the driver.
See that keyword above, "want"? What you're asking is 'how do we have a competition where no one wants to be competitive?'
It's. Just. Not. Possible.
Example: Just wait 'til I get tired of spending money in ITA and decide to move to a class where the prep level is currently slightly less and there's some cherries available for picking.
Like ITC. Or maybe ITB...
Any debate on whether the pointy-end speed of the class will suddenly increase?
I'd love to discuss it with you over drinks.
There's big-screen TVs in Improved Touring...?
JLawton
New member
TVs??? I don't recall any hookers either (and god knows I've looked!!). Of course, I've heard that if you throw Crazy Joe a few bucks he'll do just about anything!! Isn't there some video tape of him dancing????
Greg,
I think you should immediatly jump to ITC or ITB to test this theory.....And bring Bettencourt with you!!!
Spec Kia. How 'bout Show Room Stock Kia. A bolt in roll cage is the only thing you can add. We might even be able to get Kia to sponsor the series and pony up some cars. I'd sign up. A brand new Kia probably costs less than a lot of IT cars. It could double as a daily driver.
Might be better than spending several K for a new engine management system and then spending all my free time figuring out how to make it work.
David
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Did someone mention autocross?
Ha! I decided to roadrace because I could have more fun for less money than autocrossing. Stock is the car of the year class, and modded gets expensive to mod, of course, and then you end up trailering your car everywhere.
Oh..and you get three runs of practice so it takes forever ...lots and lots of events, to get good.
I really really think IT IS entry level, but winning..well, THATS not entry level....
I have wondered about a "Rookie class" in SCCA though. It'd be really tough to manage though.
Ha! I decided to roadrace because I could have more fun for less money than autocrossing. Stock is the car of the year class, and modded gets expensive to mod, of course, and then you end up trailering your car everywhere.
Oh..and you get three runs of practice so it takes forever ...lots and lots of events, to get good.
I really really think IT IS entry level, but winning..well, THATS not entry level....
I have wondered about a "Rookie class" in SCCA though. It'd be really tough to manage though.
benspeed
New member
Just no such thing as inexpensive racing. I agree with Greg - this is about competition and money will buy success. Maybe that's why we see some really well heeled folks in our sport - money can't make you run faster, shoot better or catch better. But it can make your car faster.
And based on the "creativity" of many driver/engineer/mechanics - folks will always be cooking up new ways to push the envelope. And that will force the rest of the pack to spend to keep up.
I was chuckling at one post on another thread where a driver of a carb car wanted to shed weight because EFI cars might get to replace the stock ECU. I'd only do that deal if they had to pay for each pound shed in a pro rata to the ECU spend
And based on the "creativity" of many driver/engineer/mechanics - folks will always be cooking up new ways to push the envelope. And that will force the rest of the pack to spend to keep up.
I was chuckling at one post on another thread where a driver of a carb car wanted to shed weight because EFI cars might get to replace the stock ECU. I'd only do that deal if they had to pay for each pound shed in a pro rata to the ECU spend
gran racing
Super Moderator
Jake, my reference to autocrossing was how they use the rookie class, not about the type of racing itself.
I also fully understand that if people become competitive in a class, no matter what the rules may be, people will find ways to spend money. I still think there are ways to further deter it though. Add no trophies into the mix? When all is said and done, this just might not be possible but that doesn't mean it isn't worth giving thought to from time to time. One never knows what new ideas might be generated.
RSTPerformance
New member
I like your efforts on thinking dave, don't get me wrong.... but... No Trophies??? Trophies or not people would still be racing to win. I can remember several Pocono races where they never issued trophies (Still extremely bitter about it
) but we still went back and raced just as hard the next year even though we didn't expect any trophies from that disfunctional region. My brother and I used to not care where we finished overall (and we to a degree we still don't, but we have been known to help each other), we only cared about beating each other. So for what it is worth the class thought that you have already exists... the RX-7 guys do it in ITA, and I am sure that thier are several freindship battles/races that happen at every event that is not at the front of the pack. Remember when ITA raced for 2nd as first was unobtainable (Anthony Seira)?
Raymond
Hey, man - it's not MY fault that you decided to race that plastic thing this year rather than hang out with us at enduros.
Don't take this personally, David but I get the sense you haven't been around this game very long. What you describe has been done (e.g., Renault Cup) and guess what? People figure out that they can spend money (within or beyond the rules) to go faster. Parker Johnstone explained that he won his Renault championship by spending what he would have on an underfunded Formula Atlantic program...
... AND THEY REBUILT THEIR ENGINES BETWEEN SESSIONS LIKE A FUNNY CAR TEAM because they figured out that the crappy wet-liner, o-ring sealed POS powerplants were losing compression with less than an hour running time.
I wrote a white-paper brief years ago for a proposal to a manufacturer, for a series that was like those "Cup" things, but an arrive-and-drive deal, where the cars got hauled from race to race in commercial car haulers, and drivers drew their cars from a hat. Guess what? Pretty much nobody liked the idea, for a few interesting reasons.
1. Like Greg mentioned, it seemed kind of expensive when all of a weekend's racing gets paid for on one check, rather than spread out over months and months.
2. Drivers like to own their cars. They (mistakenly, generally) feel like the hardware is an investment - like it's not really an expense.
3. Drivers WANTED to be able to engineer their individual advantages! Many just don't WANT a truly level playing field, or doubt that it will be level and are afraid that they'll draw the pooch. (This is a very real concern. They used to move the bodywork around on the Russell series car in an effort to bamboozle the drivers - who just started bribing the techs to help them get into the "hot cars.")
Now, if things have changed just let me know and I'll resurrect that idea. Call it Conover Motor Sports Spec Rabbit. You never turn a wrench, show up with your kit, pick your seat out of the semi, get fitted to the car, and go racing. Figure about $5000 per weekend if we could come up with 25 guys who'd sign a contract for the entire season.
K
gran racing
Super Moderator
Right now we have exactly what we need. I suppose my effort should be on preserving that. Now more than ever am I against IT going national.
Ray, don't forget that I started off in ITA and had some awesome battles with Jake Fisher in his MR2. I'd like to see this type of racing preserved. In reading some of my posts again, I didn't do such a great job conveying where I was trying to go with some of this. Now, I have you to try and beat.
Ray, don't forget that I started off in ITA and had some awesome battles with Jake Fisher in his MR2. I'd like to see this type of racing preserved. In reading some of my posts again, I didn't do such a great job conveying where I was trying to go with some of this. Now, I have you to try and beat.
As soon as money or perceived fame is involved, the class turns into "star wars" I have seen the ministock class run for cash and the guys went nuts. The ice racers wanted better tires and ruined that by requiring 600$ worth of tires to see the front. This started the domino effect of more power, more suspension, rules creep, etc.way more money, the club died. , But the big money guys loved it.
I offered to set up a ITVW class , but the VW guys , want to out spend each other , as do most of the SCCA guys. I race on old spec racer tires, I went a 245; @ Sebring on Spec Ford tires!! For My ITB car.
National will just take the fun away from the few of us that just race for fun.
The best way to limit the cars and have the most fun is to spec a Tire Rack or Discount tire ,50$ 205/60 size tire. Maybe 300# springs too, to keep it soft and slow. easy on those cheap tires. Two seats. so that you can use the car for track days.
The speeds will be slow ,and the fun will be there . The racing will be very close. Run the window stickers and look like pros!! hey, didnt the Firehawk start like that??
I will convert myITB car to this class in the SE, pick a good tire. Any other VW ITB cars??
You can buy most ITB Golfs for less than 5K.
Mike Ogren
I offered to set up a ITVW class , but the VW guys , want to out spend each other , as do most of the SCCA guys. I race on old spec racer tires, I went a 245; @ Sebring on Spec Ford tires!! For My ITB car.
National will just take the fun away from the few of us that just race for fun.
The best way to limit the cars and have the most fun is to spec a Tire Rack or Discount tire ,50$ 205/60 size tire. Maybe 300# springs too, to keep it soft and slow. easy on those cheap tires. Two seats. so that you can use the car for track days.
The speeds will be slow ,and the fun will be there . The racing will be very close. Run the window stickers and look like pros!! hey, didnt the Firehawk start like that??
I will convert myITB car to this class in the SE, pick a good tire. Any other VW ITB cars??
You can buy most ITB Golfs for less than 5K.
Mike Ogren
Mike Guenther
New member
We already have a few economy classes like IT-7, ITC and ITB. It has been said many times that you can not stop someone from spending $50 grand on dyno testing for every little bit of motor change and track testing for every little bit of chassis change. But beyond that, these classes are really limited in what money spent has any return in speed.
The sheer joy of racing can be had for a couple of thousand dollars in these classes. Heck, you can have an adrenelin rush in ITS for $5-7 grand. Sure you won't be at the front, but you'll be racing some other great guys who appreciate the action in their part of the race.
But back to the topic. IT-7 and ITC cars can be purchased very economically and a great time can be had learning how to race and learning how to move toward the front of the pack. People with money will always be able to buy new tires more often, even weekly, and spend more on tuning. But these classes are about racing on a budget and getting your adrenelin fix for less than the cost of a heroin addiction.
I loved racing in IT-7. And when I started to get up towards the front more often I thought it was time to try to move up a class. I don't have the money to get as close to the front in ITS, but I've been having a ball with some great guys trying to race into the top ten. On a budget!
The sheer joy of racing can be had for a couple of thousand dollars in these classes. Heck, you can have an adrenelin rush in ITS for $5-7 grand. Sure you won't be at the front, but you'll be racing some other great guys who appreciate the action in their part of the race.
But back to the topic. IT-7 and ITC cars can be purchased very economically and a great time can be had learning how to race and learning how to move toward the front of the pack. People with money will always be able to buy new tires more often, even weekly, and spend more on tuning. But these classes are about racing on a budget and getting your adrenelin fix for less than the cost of a heroin addiction.
I loved racing in IT-7. And when I started to get up towards the front more often I thought it was time to try to move up a class. I don't have the money to get as close to the front in ITS, but I've been having a ball with some great guys trying to race into the top ten. On a budget!
shwah
New member
Read those two lines again. They conflict a bit. Your idea didn't make sense to most of us, because most of our competition is VW already, and we are not - as a whole - spending big dollars. It was an answer to a question no one was asking - Where can I race a VW competitively without breaking the bank? That is because there is already an answer: ITB
pballance
New member
I have been following this thread with great interest. As a relative newcomer I have experienced some of the very items discussed.
Let's face it, racing isn't cheap, never will be, and as others have said cubic dollars will produce a front running car no matter what the class or limitations.
I think we may be missing the point worring about the car/class more than the expectations of the new driver. My "win" is being on track with a bunch of guys to provide competition and going home at the end of the weekend with all of MY body parts and the car parts in the same shape (or very close) as I arrived in.
I can always find a race whether at the pointy end of the field or near the back. Bottom line for me is that it be fun. A budget racer can have fun without spending megabucks to be at the front. To date, and I do not keep accurate receipts, I have spent about 8k on a complete racing program. That includes updates to an S car, spares, new to me trailer, and tires. I could have done it a little cheaper but I chose not to.
I think the better question to ask is "What do I expect being a new driver?" or "What can we do to make a newcomer feel welcome and competitive?"
I surely don't expect to be at the front for the first race, the first 10 races or maybe even the first 50 races no matter how much money I spend on car or prep. I do expect to have fun, learn how to race, meet new people and make new friendships. But the bottom line is to have FUN.
The competitiveness of each one of us is apparent in the fact that we race. How badly we want win and how deep are our pockets dictates whether we run at the front no matter what the class. The idea of a "spec" type class is a good one but the reality is, as you guys have so aptly described someone always spends the cubic dollars to be at the front.
just my $.02 worth
Let's face it, racing isn't cheap, never will be, and as others have said cubic dollars will produce a front running car no matter what the class or limitations.
I think we may be missing the point worring about the car/class more than the expectations of the new driver. My "win" is being on track with a bunch of guys to provide competition and going home at the end of the weekend with all of MY body parts and the car parts in the same shape (or very close) as I arrived in.
I can always find a race whether at the pointy end of the field or near the back. Bottom line for me is that it be fun. A budget racer can have fun without spending megabucks to be at the front. To date, and I do not keep accurate receipts, I have spent about 8k on a complete racing program. That includes updates to an S car, spares, new to me trailer, and tires. I could have done it a little cheaper but I chose not to.
I think the better question to ask is "What do I expect being a new driver?" or "What can we do to make a newcomer feel welcome and competitive?"
I surely don't expect to be at the front for the first race, the first 10 races or maybe even the first 50 races no matter how much money I spend on car or prep. I do expect to have fun, learn how to race, meet new people and make new friendships. But the bottom line is to have FUN.
The competitiveness of each one of us is apparent in the fact that we race. How badly we want win and how deep are our pockets dictates whether we run at the front no matter what the class. The idea of a "spec" type class is a good one but the reality is, as you guys have so aptly described someone always spends the cubic dollars to be at the front.
just my $.02 worth
Mike Guenther
New member
Pballance,
nicely said. That is what club racing is all about.
I've heard it described as a beer club that uses racing as an excuse to have a party.
Be safe and have fun.
nicely said. That is what club racing is all about.
I've heard it described as a beer club that uses racing as an excuse to have a party.
Be safe and have fun.
The crux of the issue is not so much the development of new "budget" focused classes so much as the "cost" associated with racing. We do not need more classes IMO geared to the budget or entry level racer. Who wants to race for no trophy or no bragging rights? It'll NEVER happen. There's already a place for them.
What we need is a predictable stable set of rules so that your AVERAGE budget minded racer can feel PROTECTED by the rulebook- simply that he's not throwing his money away on efforts made to date (e36 ITS BMW comes to mind), only to have them change next season.
The rules creep and lack of stability in the philosophy of the class is what drives classes away from "entry level". What would happen to f500 if they allowed some modification outside of the intent of the class like say, hypothetically a motorcycle engine alternate instead of a snowmobile engine. Ruels change, costs change. It is the variability in the ruleset that introduces the variables in the racers budget. Keep one stable and the other becomes more predictable and vice versa.
R
What we need is a predictable stable set of rules so that your AVERAGE budget minded racer can feel PROTECTED by the rulebook- simply that he's not throwing his money away on efforts made to date (e36 ITS BMW comes to mind), only to have them change next season.
The rules creep and lack of stability in the philosophy of the class is what drives classes away from "entry level". What would happen to f500 if they allowed some modification outside of the intent of the class like say, hypothetically a motorcycle engine alternate instead of a snowmobile engine. Ruels change, costs change. It is the variability in the ruleset that introduces the variables in the racers budget. Keep one stable and the other becomes more predictable and vice versa.
R