When is a Start Not a Start?
- Thread starter Greg Amy
- Start date
bldn10
New member
"I think it was reasonable not to sanction drivers, but I could also see where it would be reasonable to do so as well. Ya takes yer chances."
George, you can disagree w/ me but I think the reasoning I used to arrive at my take on this is absolutely sound. The drivers at the back should definitely NOT have be sanctioned because no flag at a corner station does indeed mean green course at that station. That's why they don't bother to even take the greens out of the bag. A driver obeying the flag condition at a corner station is not taking a chance; indeed, he would be taking a chance if he did otherwise.
George, you can disagree w/ me but I think the reasoning I used to arrive at my take on this is absolutely sound. The drivers at the back should definitely NOT have be sanctioned because no flag at a corner station does indeed mean green course at that station. That's why they don't bother to even take the greens out of the bag. A driver obeying the flag condition at a corner station is not taking a chance; indeed, he would be taking a chance if he did otherwise.
Please provide a reference in the GCR that states this.
[edit]
For extra credit, please reference where a race starts when there are no flags displayed at a corner station.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
[This message has been edited by Geo (edited April 27, 2004).]
All this would be moot if we ran under the same rules that SCCA Pro uses for rolling starts - basically "stay in two lines and NO passing or pulling out of line until you cross the start line".
I'm not advocating it...actually I think it sucks. The Pro races I've done require major reminders to all of us Club schmoes that we not screw up the start procedure. But...it does solve the problem. How often does this problem really occur, and why reinvent race starts for a problem that only occurs once every 20 years ?
Regardless of specific language in the GCR, IMO any group of SOM's (that aren't clinically dead) would not take action against Club drivers who 'started their race' when they saw the double yellows drop. That's why there are SOM's - to act as a court to interpret the sometimes fuzzy logic in the GCR.
I'm not advocating it...actually I think it sucks. The Pro races I've done require major reminders to all of us Club schmoes that we not screw up the start procedure. But...it does solve the problem. How often does this problem really occur, and why reinvent race starts for a problem that only occurs once every 20 years ?
Regardless of specific language in the GCR, IMO any group of SOM's (that aren't clinically dead) would not take action against Club drivers who 'started their race' when they saw the double yellows drop. That's why there are SOM's - to act as a court to interpret the sometimes fuzzy logic in the GCR.
timelapseracing
New member
I've been a flagger at Road Atlanta and Summit Point primarily, as well as having had the 'privilage' of racing in the back to middle of IT fields at Summit. From a flaggers perspective - when control tells you that there has been a start and you drop the double yellows the course is green - no matter what happend on the starters stand. Most turn stations can't see S/F. If the situation occurs that a green was not displayed at start and control called a start, then they should have immediately called a black flag all and had a black flag displayed at S/F so the rest of the pack that saw the drop of the double yellows would now have the information that there was a problem. You are correct that the starter starts the race, but control tells the F&C when the course is green - so from a racers point of view - if you see the double yellows drop - go - it is a green track until you see some information from the flags that it is not.
I agree conflicting information is a dangerous situation, but the response should not be to add another flag - when I'm not racing - I'm not going to stand there holding a green flag lap after lap for you to know that you can race. The flags in turn 10 at Summit and at the bottom of the hill at Atlanta often (and appropriately) serve as the information for the change to a green course condition for the back of the field.
Jason Fields.
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I agree conflicting information is a dangerous situation, but the response should not be to add another flag - when I'm not racing - I'm not going to stand there holding a green flag lap after lap for you to know that you can race. The flags in turn 10 at Summit and at the bottom of the hill at Atlanta often (and appropriately) serve as the information for the change to a green course condition for the back of the field.
Jason Fields.
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bldn10
New member
George, as I have already stated in a previous post, it is not in the GCR and it does not need to be because it is inherent in the rules. Also, note that I referred you to my reasoning not to any rule. Once a race has officially started it remains green until some flag is shown. When that flag is removed the race reverts to green again. The Starter could just as well simply drop the yellow for restarts but probably tradition as much as anything has us making a big show w/ a waving green. But back at the stations all they do is drop their yellows, 99% of the time in conjunction w/ the green at start-finish. As Jason correctly explained, when Race Control says go, the race has restarted at the stations regardless of what happened or did not happen at start-finish. For that reason your bonus question is irrelevant to the issue of whether drivers at the back could have been sanctioned. It is not intended but possible, as at NHIS, for a race to have not restarted at start-finish but have at the corner stations. If the GCR covered every possible scenario it would be twice as thick as it is.
Greg Gauper
New member
Wow!
This is starting to sound like one of those abstract philosophy questions (If Helen Keller is alone in the woods and she falls down, does she make a sound?)
If a green flag is displayed, but nobody sees it, is the race under way?
It sounds like some people are getting hung up on the difference of having the green flag thrown on a start or in this case restart, vs actually seeing the flag as it is thrown. The track is green when the starter throws the flag and the corners drop their local double yellows. The rules say "when the flag is displayed" agreed, you may not see it, but none the less, it has been displayed.
In the case of Road America, one can be almost two or three miles away on the back side of the track when the field gets the green on the restart! You can bet your ass that I'm cueing off the workers dropping the double yellows to know when to go. As added incentive, having the workers vigorously waving a blue soon after because a faster ITS is coming up on you 30mph tends to reinforce the idea that we must be racing.
This is starting to sound like one of those abstract philosophy questions (If Helen Keller is alone in the woods and she falls down, does she make a sound?)
If a green flag is displayed, but nobody sees it, is the race under way?
It sounds like some people are getting hung up on the difference of having the green flag thrown on a start or in this case restart, vs actually seeing the flag as it is thrown. The track is green when the starter throws the flag and the corners drop their local double yellows. The rules say "when the flag is displayed" agreed, you may not see it, but none the less, it has been displayed.
In the case of Road America, one can be almost two or three miles away on the back side of the track when the field gets the green on the restart! You can bet your ass that I'm cueing off the workers dropping the double yellows to know when to go. As added incentive, having the workers vigorously waving a blue soon after because a faster ITS is coming up on you 30mph tends to reinforce the idea that we must be racing.
So, what happens when the green flag is NOT displayed?
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
Greg Gauper
New member
Simple. Race control announces over the corner communication network (radio or hardline, depending on the track) "No Start, No Start" and the double yellows are not withdrawn on the corners.
Keep in mind that control is usually in contact with the saftey steward in the pace car, and will inform the starter when the safety car is going to pull in. In lieu of a saftey car, the corners will advise race control if the situation that brought out the full course caution is sufficiently clear to resume when the leader approaches the starter. It is still up to the discretion of the stewards as to when racing will resume.
[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited April 30, 2004).]
Keep in mind that control is usually in contact with the saftey steward in the pace car, and will inform the starter when the safety car is going to pull in. In lieu of a saftey car, the corners will advise race control if the situation that brought out the full course caution is sufficiently clear to resume when the leader approaches the starter. It is still up to the discretion of the stewards as to when racing will resume.
[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited April 30, 2004).]
Apparently not always.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
bldn10
New member
I mean this a clarification of my stated position but I may just be digging a deeper hole. It occurred to me that George and I might be somewhat talking apples and oranges. When I say the drivers who can only see the corner station are entitled to start racing when they see the yellows drop, I mean AT THAT STATION. When they enter the next flag zone and a different flag is shown, they have to obey it as well. If at NHIS the Starter put out a yellow then everyone should have stopped racing once they saw it. So, George is right that, although the race may have (erroneously) started for the drivers in the back when the corners dropped their yellows, that does not mean they could keep racing despite subsequent contrary flags.
One thing I am unsure of is whether a green is supposed to be shown at start-finish during the race. I did not find such a requirement in the GCR but I have been told that is the case and I think it is at least customary at some if not most tracks.
One thing I am unsure of is whether a green is supposed to be shown at start-finish during the race. I did not find such a requirement in the GCR but I have been told that is the case and I think it is at least customary at some if not most tracks.
Ok, here's a question from the other angle. Suppose that I'm starting/restarting WAY in the back and the car beside/in front of me has radio communication with a crew member on pit road. The green flag flies, crew member tells driver to punch it, and I see that car and all of the other cars with radios take off. I look forward to the next corner station and it is still double yellow. What can I legally do??
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-Scott Gallimore
-ITC #88 Pulsar
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-Scott Gallimore
-ITC #88 Pulsar
Accepting that this conversation is really trying to come up with failsafes against what is clearly an error in this case, it strikes me as potentailly dangerous when we EVER fully accept the absence of some signal as positive affirmation of something.
This goes back to the very first time that I saw the FIA use an ABSENCE of red lights to mean "go," at the beginning of an F1 race. What if there's a power outage before all of the cars are correctly gridded? I don't know of the system ever failing but I'll betcha that, the week after it DOES, there will be people doing the same kind of post-mortem that we are doing here.
K
This goes back to the very first time that I saw the FIA use an ABSENCE of red lights to mean "go," at the beginning of an F1 race. What if there's a power outage before all of the cars are correctly gridded? I don't know of the system ever failing but I'll betcha that, the week after it DOES, there will be people doing the same kind of post-mortem that we are doing here.
K
RSTPerformance
New member
Scott-
That one is easy... You see Yellows... you can not pass!!!
Raymond
That one is easy... You see Yellows... you can not pass!!!
Raymond
RSTPerformance
New member
I want the extra credit!!!!
The race is NOT BEING RESTARTED! If the course goes to full course yellow it is simply a full course yellow. the race is still presuming just with caution and no passing. The only time you have a restart is when the race is stopped. The race was not stopped. We had a full course yellow only! (until they pulled us in with a black flagg to regrid us after the crazy lack of green.) When the yellows dropped the course was green end of story that's it.
No green is needed following a yellow flag. when the yellows drop and or you pass the incedent and no yellow is present at the next station the course is green. I don't understand why noone gets this! I for one was mistaken and thought it was a waveoff and did not go. Looking back I was a fool and because of this I am shamefull. When I saw no yellow I should have raced!
The green flag means the same thing as a corner with no yellow flags.
Stephen
PS: I am the one that went from 1st to 8th from that restart craziness and has learned from it!
RSTPerformance
New member
Have you ever finished under a full course caution?
Stephen
RSTPerformance
New member
If so, how did you finish if you didn't start?
Stephen
