IT Festival at MO
- Thread starter Andy Bettencourt
- Start date
gran racing
Super Moderator
If it paid money, entry fees would need to be higher to cover the payouts. I agree with what others are saying and would rather have my entry fee going towards more track time. Although...I suppose I could consider paying a higher entry fee as a savings plan for after the race? 
I presonally am not very motivated by the types of payouts or continginces which have been provided in club racing. For the ARRC, that's an after thought for me and many others. When I'm down there, I look to see what's available, not see what's avail. then decide if it's worth going down there. I do think it is very cool to have, but it's a bonus. We've also had some Pro IT races in the N.E. with higher entry fees but that have payouts. I'd rather not pay the extra $200 in entry fees for those races and put it towards doing another event.
In the club level, I'm not so sure that having high payouts would be a good thing. For one thing, like Greg said, there would be more cars with a lot more money in them. The other aspect is how it would change the attitude of the event.
I presonally am not very motivated by the types of payouts or continginces which have been provided in club racing. For the ARRC, that's an after thought for me and many others. When I'm down there, I look to see what's available, not see what's avail. then decide if it's worth going down there. I do think it is very cool to have, but it's a bonus. We've also had some Pro IT races in the N.E. with higher entry fees but that have payouts. I'd rather not pay the extra $200 in entry fees for those races and put it towards doing another event.
In the club level, I'm not so sure that having high payouts would be a good thing. For one thing, like Greg said, there would be more cars with a lot more money in them. The other aspect is how it would change the attitude of the event.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Stephen I'm confused why you chose $250...as your threshold, then listed abunch of much lesser events at crappy tracks that cost more. Huh?
Once you figure in the cost of tires, hotels, fuel, lost revenue, food, crew costs, race car consumables, and tow vehicle consumables, even if this was the MOST expensive double, it would add....wait for it...like 4% to the total nut....in other words, nothing. The entry fee is my least concern!
And I'll pass on any payout too, it might be fun down the road, but I never bank on anything like prize money or contingencies. They're great surprises when I get them, but in most normal seasons, they amount to a small part of the picture.
Once you figure in the cost of tires, hotels, fuel, lost revenue, food, crew costs, race car consumables, and tow vehicle consumables, even if this was the MOST expensive double, it would add....wait for it...like 4% to the total nut....in other words, nothing. The entry fee is my least concern!
And I'll pass on any payout too, it might be fun down the road, but I never bank on anything like prize money or contingencies. They're great surprises when I get them, but in most normal seasons, they amount to a small part of the picture.
Yes, the money trees grew in fantastically this year. So pretty. <_<
The best races I've ever been a part of had nothing to do with entry fee's, contingencies, or prize money. They had to do with the cars that showed up and the people that raced them. That's really all I care about. I just want another chance to run on the same track with a field of top-notch cars like we do at Atlanta in November. That's all. Asking for more than that, especially in the events first year, is just getting greedy, IMO. So give the racers track time, decent value, credibility, and the promise of a big, tough field at a world class race track, and they'll show up.
Remember, the ARRC is really nothing more than a restricted regional too. There's no big purses, no big boobed groupies, and no TV camera waiting to interview you. Heck, you can even race it on a Novice Permit. So why do we hold it as something more? Track time, decent value, credibility, and the promise of a big, tough field at a world class race track. Oh yea, and also so we can brag about it on the internet when we do well.
If I wanted to feel like a Pro with a big purse, I'd build a Grand Am Cup car (and endure all of the added costs and headaches that come along with that).
I have to agree with those who just want to race a strong field at a great venue. I crew for a FC guy and our most anticipated weekend was the regional at M-O two weeks prior to the Runoffs. The car count and talent there was a great yardstick to measure our progress from year to year. The run groups were 25-40 strong with the overwhelming majority of entrants having qualified for the Runoffs. Killer stuff.
I haven't raced M-O yet, but will be there for this race for the opportunity to race with a big (I hope!) ITC run group. No doubt it would be the biggest group I will see all year and I just can't pass up the opportunity to race a first time event and field like this. The money/contingencies will come as the event gains stature, but we as racers will have to support it from the start to make it happen. No grassroots event is born huge, it takes time and dedication to make it happen. I commend those who proposed the event to begin with, when all is said and done and the last combatant tows their steed from the arena on Sunday night, August 12th, I would pray that the organizers are very tired and satisfied with the weekend and formulating an even bigger event for '08. See you there.
I haven't raced M-O yet, but will be there for this race for the opportunity to race with a big (I hope!) ITC run group. No doubt it would be the biggest group I will see all year and I just can't pass up the opportunity to race a first time event and field like this. The money/contingencies will come as the event gains stature, but we as racers will have to support it from the start to make it happen. No grassroots event is born huge, it takes time and dedication to make it happen. I commend those who proposed the event to begin with, when all is said and done and the last combatant tows their steed from the arena on Sunday night, August 12th, I would pray that the organizers are very tired and satisfied with the weekend and formulating an even bigger event for '08. See you there.
dj10
New member
1st of all, feeling like a Pro would only be a state of mind and has absoultly nothing to do with what I suggested. For your info the PRO IT series does not have big purses. The purse would cover gas money to and from the event, maybe.
Since this would be a restricted regional, why not invite the PRO IT? What's wrong with thinking alittle out of the box. It's easy, even a caveman can do it. gran racing
Super Moderator
What is the purpose of "Pro" IT versus the standard IT as we know it? Why not just have another IT race?
RickyBobby
New member
What's wrong with thinking alittle out of the box. It's easy, even a caveman can do it.
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dj10
New member
Maybe they make some money to cover some expenses? This is just a wild guess.
Why don't you ask the SE Division about the prupose of PRO IT.
If you guys are so hell bent about NOT making expense money, why do you sign up for contingencies? Isn't this a form of race winnings that help cover your race expenses?
dickita15
New member
It is not that we don’t like getting money it is just that the organizing region has a date at a world class track and want to put of a really cool race for IT. I don’t want them to think that we will not come without prize money. They are already taking a risk to give us something we want, lets no make it any harder.
If we wander away from the true purpose of "Club Racing" then doesn't it become a job instead of a hobby?
I say hobby because we do it for the FUN of it. This is where my friends are, this is what I look forward to doing every off season. I work corners and watch you crazy drivers get yourselves in all kinds of trouble. LOL. I don't expect anything for it except the chance to get away from my everyday life for a weekend of watching race cars . To come home smelling like burnt rubber and exhaust fumes and SMILE! I don't think you can put a paycheck against that.
Todd
I say hobby because we do it for the FUN of it. This is where my friends are, this is what I look forward to doing every off season. I work corners and watch you crazy drivers get yourselves in all kinds of trouble. LOL. I don't expect anything for it except the chance to get away from my everyday life for a weekend of watching race cars . To come home smelling like burnt rubber and exhaust fumes and SMILE! I don't think you can put a paycheck against that.
Todd
RSTPerformance
New member
for a couple days now I have been reading about the contingencies, and entry fees... and just didn't know how to reply, and still probably don't... lol
but, here goes...
I do think that Stephen showed some relevant info, at least compairing race costs, interesting.
Jake, 1 of 2 races at NHIS, 1 race at Summit and 1 race at Pocono are the only races out of the 9 "doubles" listed that are more xpensive. I would hardly argue that Summit is considered a "crappy track." You might not like Pocono, but I love that track, as I think it is one of the most unique tracks in the country. NHIS I am not a huge fan of, but you have to admit it is also one of the most Unique in the country. Mid-Ohio is another "real" road course and while unique, it also has a lot of similarities to other true road racing tracks. I do admit it is one of my favorite tracks that I have been to... probably second to Road Atlanta, but a very close second.
As for $250 I think that is a reasonable entry threshold, why? read further:
Dick with respect, I think your reply is based on "us" (Us being New Englanders and other long distance travelers). While the entry is one of our lowest expences, it is not for everyone. Despite what we may dream, most of the entrants will be locals, and we need to ensure that the locals will come out and play with us or the event will be a bust, even if they are not "top level" cars. IMO A lower entry/on track time ratio is essential to get high entry numbers.
Why do I say this? As a local racer here in New England I know that many people do look at entry fees, and I am sure that the local racers will also be doing the same How many of us have bitched about lime rock entries and refuse to go because of it? How successful is the "Cheep date" event at NHIS. How successful is the "track time is King" event at NHIS?
While I do agree that being a "restricted regional" means that it will draw extra entries no matter what the price, I do think that we want to maximize that total number. I want to see every local driver at the event!!! For me I guess I would suggest for the region that at this "new event" in reguards to entry is to be sure to keep it reasoable, even cheep if possible. Don't plan on "making money" this year, but be sure to break even. More racers will come as the years go on and then I am sure you will start making money!!! Thats it for me on entries!!! (wow that was drawn out, I hope I made sence
)
As for contingencies... I am sure those will come in time. Cash payouts while nice are not necessary either at this time IMO.
now on to more important things... about the anouncer, is thier one? We need an anouncer at this event, and we need a "victory circle" with interviews... just for our ego's, even if we don't have any fans watching
Hope all is well, and again thanks for the hard work to get this event rolling down the right track;
Raymond "I hope I have $$$ and a car come August 07!!!" Blethen
but, here goes...
I do think that Stephen showed some relevant info, at least compairing race costs, interesting.
Jake, 1 of 2 races at NHIS, 1 race at Summit and 1 race at Pocono are the only races out of the 9 "doubles" listed that are more xpensive. I would hardly argue that Summit is considered a "crappy track." You might not like Pocono, but I love that track, as I think it is one of the most unique tracks in the country. NHIS I am not a huge fan of, but you have to admit it is also one of the most Unique in the country. Mid-Ohio is another "real" road course and while unique, it also has a lot of similarities to other true road racing tracks. I do admit it is one of my favorite tracks that I have been to... probably second to Road Atlanta, but a very close second.
As for $250 I think that is a reasonable entry threshold, why? read further:
Dick with respect, I think your reply is based on "us" (Us being New Englanders and other long distance travelers). While the entry is one of our lowest expences, it is not for everyone. Despite what we may dream, most of the entrants will be locals, and we need to ensure that the locals will come out and play with us or the event will be a bust, even if they are not "top level" cars. IMO A lower entry/on track time ratio is essential to get high entry numbers.
Why do I say this? As a local racer here in New England I know that many people do look at entry fees, and I am sure that the local racers will also be doing the same How many of us have bitched about lime rock entries and refuse to go because of it? How successful is the "Cheep date" event at NHIS. How successful is the "track time is King" event at NHIS?
While I do agree that being a "restricted regional" means that it will draw extra entries no matter what the price, I do think that we want to maximize that total number. I want to see every local driver at the event!!! For me I guess I would suggest for the region that at this "new event" in reguards to entry is to be sure to keep it reasoable, even cheep if possible. Don't plan on "making money" this year, but be sure to break even. More racers will come as the years go on and then I am sure you will start making money!!! Thats it for me on entries!!! (wow that was drawn out, I hope I made sence
)As for contingencies... I am sure those will come in time. Cash payouts while nice are not necessary either at this time IMO.
now on to more important things... about the anouncer, is thier one? We need an anouncer at this event, and we need a "victory circle" with interviews... just for our ego's, even if we don't have any fans watching
Hope all is well, and again thanks for the hard work to get this event rolling down the right track;
Raymond "I hope I have $$$ and a car come August 07!!!" Blethen
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Ray,
You may like Pocono, but there is no arguing it presents nothing for the racer. It's a 5-turn go-kart track with a chicane thrown in. Those two 'unique' (?) pieces connecting two HUGE drag races that require no skill and all HP. NHIS is a nice local track that we are lucky to have but in terms of quality? It's a low-speed Roval. Some like it, some hate it. It couldn't be more opposite of some of the permier road racing tracks in the country.
The point on the entry fees is that they ARE such a small portion of the overall racing budget - when you factor in transportaion costs, racecar maintenance costs, tires, gas, food, licensing etc. many people whined about LRP (because increased costs do stink) but it kept nobody away. I am betting the cost of gas for tow rigs and racecars was 100X more a factor this year in lowered car counts than anything.
Yes, cost to track time ratios are important, but when you factor in ALL the money involved, the % get way less important. It's big picture stuff.
Having said all of that, I think everyone will be real pleased with the plan these guys have cooked up for this event. If it gets approved, look for about 110 minutes of RACING time...and an opportunity to get some track time before the event.
Do the math on those numbers...even the best Double up here looks like this:
Cheap Date Double: 2 - 15min quals and 2 - 30 minute races. That is 30 minutes of qual time and 60 minutes of race time. At $220, that is $3.67 a minute of race time, $2.44 a minute of track time.
To equal your bogey, the entry fee could be $341.60 for track time at Mid-Ohio. I almost guanantee the race time cost is lower at this event than almost any you have run. (Hint - NERRC Triple)
Again, would that $91.60 keep you away given all the other money you have to spend to attend? ($341.60 - $250) Nope.
For comparison, you paid $3.68 a minute for track time and $10.17 a minute for race time at the NARRC Runoffs. The Pocono Double? You paid $7.89 a minute for race time...You paid $8.00 per minute of race time at the Opening Day Regional at NHIS. See the point? When you actually do the math, even though the numbers are ugly, the significance of those numbers is small when taken in context.
Having blabbered all that, this event will produce some of the best cost/race ratios. It should also produce some great racing and some great inter-IT rivalies and friendships. Congrats to all.
You may like Pocono, but there is no arguing it presents nothing for the racer. It's a 5-turn go-kart track with a chicane thrown in. Those two 'unique' (?) pieces connecting two HUGE drag races that require no skill and all HP. NHIS is a nice local track that we are lucky to have but in terms of quality? It's a low-speed Roval. Some like it, some hate it. It couldn't be more opposite of some of the permier road racing tracks in the country.
The point on the entry fees is that they ARE such a small portion of the overall racing budget - when you factor in transportaion costs, racecar maintenance costs, tires, gas, food, licensing etc. many people whined about LRP (because increased costs do stink) but it kept nobody away. I am betting the cost of gas for tow rigs and racecars was 100X more a factor this year in lowered car counts than anything.
Yes, cost to track time ratios are important, but when you factor in ALL the money involved, the % get way less important. It's big picture stuff.
Having said all of that, I think everyone will be real pleased with the plan these guys have cooked up for this event. If it gets approved, look for about 110 minutes of RACING time...and an opportunity to get some track time before the event.
Do the math on those numbers...even the best Double up here looks like this:
Cheap Date Double: 2 - 15min quals and 2 - 30 minute races. That is 30 minutes of qual time and 60 minutes of race time. At $220, that is $3.67 a minute of race time, $2.44 a minute of track time.
To equal your bogey, the entry fee could be $341.60 for track time at Mid-Ohio. I almost guanantee the race time cost is lower at this event than almost any you have run. (Hint - NERRC Triple)
Again, would that $91.60 keep you away given all the other money you have to spend to attend? ($341.60 - $250) Nope.
For comparison, you paid $3.68 a minute for track time and $10.17 a minute for race time at the NARRC Runoffs. The Pocono Double? You paid $7.89 a minute for race time...You paid $8.00 per minute of race time at the Opening Day Regional at NHIS. See the point? When you actually do the math, even though the numbers are ugly, the significance of those numbers is small when taken in context.
Having blabbered all that, this event will produce some of the best cost/race ratios. It should also produce some great racing and some great inter-IT rivalies and friendships. Congrats to all.
gran racing
Super Moderator
Andy, you're viewing this from your perspective and not necessarily everyone elses. There are many different levels of budgets and additional expenses. Your additional expenses do not equal what others pay (many lower, some higher). I think Ray had a good point about not increasing the entry fee too much in order to ensure the event doesn't lose local interest (something I didn't think about). Yes, LPR's entrance fee has kept me from doing some events even if I were to calculate the cost per second on track and have that equate to more than some other events. There's more to the "formula" than that, otherwise no one would do Solo / Autocross events.
RSTPerformance
New member
Andy-
Thanks for the reply... as Dave said it is good feedback as per your opinion as well as many of the people on this board... I do know though MANY people look at only the entry fee rather than towing fees, maintenance, tires and what not. Be it wright or wrong in your mind it does happen.
As for the cost per minute... Double my expence cause I usually miss half the dam sessions... lol
Raymond :Still Smiling" Blethen
Thanks for the reply... as Dave said it is good feedback as per your opinion as well as many of the people on this board... I do know though MANY people look at only the entry fee rather than towing fees, maintenance, tires and what not. Be it wright or wrong in your mind it does happen.
As for the cost per minute... Double my expence cause I usually miss half the dam sessions... lol
Raymond :Still Smiling" Blethen
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Andy, you're viewing this from your perspective and not necessarily everyone elses. There are many different levels of budgets and additional expenses. Your additional expenses do not equal what others pay (many lower, some higher). I think Ray had a good point about not increasing the entry fee too much in order to ensure the event doesn't lose local interest (something I didn't think about). Yes, LPR's entrance fee has kept me from doing some events even if I were to calculate the cost per second on track and have that equate to more than some other events. There's more to the "formula" than that, otherwise no one would do Solo / Autocross events.
Ahhh..be careful Mr. point of view, LOL, or you'll incur the wrath of autocrossers, many of whom will tell you that they have no desire to go road racing. Case in point: Paul Kozlak, multi time National Champ autocrosser, tried roadracing....wasn't a fan, sold the car and went back to the cones.
To each his own. But while I'm not going to focus on the entry fee, I do see the point of wanting to keep the entry reasonable so as not to discourage locals.
But....even if I were a local, if I heard about an event that was really catering to IT, was going to bring in quality drivers from far away, offered huge track time, AND was on one of the top four tracks in the country, I doubt I'd worry about an extra $25 or $50 bucks in the entry.
(My top tracks: Laguna Seca, Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, Mid Ohio, and possibly Road America.)
As for Pocono, that place is a wasteland of ugliyness and boredom...I doubt I'd waste the time to go there if the entry was $10. But thats just me.)
My advice to the organizers:
-Make the entry sufficient so that the region will want to do the event again.
-Make the event unique and legitimate enough so that racers will want to return. (Great format, lots of track time and legitimate teardowns)
worry about fancy stuff as you can, but not at the expense of the prime mandates. We can wait for the fancy stuff until next year or later.
The old expression about getting nickle and dimed to death comes to mind in this discussion of entry fees, gas costs, etc, etc.
Any one item may not be a deal breaker for some, but start adding it up (something NO racer should ever do :026: ) and the price tag gets too high.
Andy does make a case for more participation in ITB / ITC though. Your cost per minute goes down.
Any one item may not be a deal breaker for some, but start adding it up (something NO racer should ever do :026: ) and the price tag gets too high.
Andy does make a case for more participation in ITB / ITC though. Your cost per minute goes down.