gran racing
Super Moderator
Jake, that was my point.
IT Festival at MO
- Thread starter Andy Bettencourt
- Start date
Jake, that was my point.
MO organizers,
It is very nice of you to seek our opinions. Butch did that with ARRC. I would suggest that you take a great deal of this info with a grain of salt as topics on this BB can get
worked over to death. Do your best and after the first shot at the event ask for feedback. As with most groups it will be hard to get a unanimous answer here, but some of the ideas will be winners.
With all that said I can't make it unless my daughter says I can miss her wedding that weekend!
Good Luck, I am sure it will be a great event.
Mac
It is very nice of you to seek our opinions. Butch did that with ARRC. I would suggest that you take a great deal of this info with a grain of salt as topics on this BB can get
worked over to death. Do your best and after the first shot at the event ask for feedback. As with most groups it will be hard to get a unanimous answer here, but some of the ideas will be winners.With all that said I can't make it unless my daughter says I can miss her wedding that weekend!
Good Luck, I am sure it will be a great event.
Mac
dj10
New member
Two of the people I like to read is Chris Ludwig, post #127 & Greg Amy, post 140, as well as some othere thinkers. Both of these people are capable and do think out of the so called Box. I can agree with both of these peole are typing but I may not totally agree with them completely, it's nice to see people thinking in 3D.
I disagree with Greg about any pay outs, if any, the Cinncy region might have, if the really wanted to try and market the event. My 2 examples are #1. NASA's pay outs & marketing skills were the only thing going for that organization, IMO. #2, is the PRO IT that runs at the ARRC. The payout is not much but it is something. Anything is better than reaching into your own pocket, no matter how much money you have. I want everyone to realize that I'm not complaning or bitching. These are just statements and my opinions.
I am curious and so far no one has explained to me how and why PROIT has caught on in the SE and not anywhere else? With racing expenses going higher and higher you would think someone might be coming up with contigency money or some other ideas. Given the right marketing, cheap rates on Speedvision during murdercross or the other B rated movies they show, how does anyone know if you can draw to a high profile regional race?
I disagree with Greg about any pay outs, if any, the Cinncy region might have, if the really wanted to try and market the event. My 2 examples are #1. NASA's pay outs & marketing skills were the only thing going for that organization, IMO. #2, is the PRO IT that runs at the ARRC. The payout is not much but it is something. Anything is better than reaching into your own pocket, no matter how much money you have. I want everyone to realize that I'm not complaning or bitching. These are just statements and my opinions.
I am curious and so far no one has explained to me how and why PROIT has caught on in the SE and not anywhere else? With racing expenses going higher and higher you would think someone might be coming up with contigency money or some other ideas. Given the right marketing, cheap rates on Speedvision during murdercross or the other B rated movies they show, how does anyone know if you can draw to a high profile regional race?
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Andy, you're viewing this from your perspective and not necessarily everyone elses. There are many different levels of budgets and additional expenses. Your additional expenses do not equal what others pay (many lower, some higher). I think Ray had a good point about not increasing the entry fee too much in order to ensure the event doesn't lose local interest (something I didn't think about). Yes, LPR's entrance fee has kept me from doing some events even if I were to calculate the cost per second on track and have that equate to more than some other events. There's more to the "formula" than that, otherwise no one would do Solo / Autocross events.[/b]
Dave,
What I am saying is that the entry fee is a small portion of the budget, no matter the size of the budget. This stuff is expensive. My examples were to point out that what Raymond was using as a ceiling ($250) is not the way to look at things. Yes, perception is reality, but when you actually understand what you (you, me or anybody) spend over the course of a year to do this, $50 here or there is small potatos when you analyze the debit as a whole. Obviously I am talking about someone who is shooting for a Regional Championship like Raymond, not the once-in-a-while hobbiest.
It all rooted from his $250 comment...If this was $300 to do, and he stayed away because of $50 - knowing all the other associated costs to make the trip...I think that would be seeing just trees in front of you, no forrest.
RSTPerformance
New member
Just to be clear I probably might not (especialy with the travel) care about $250 or $300 and would probably still go. I might go wow that is expensive, but suck it up. I do think that others will say "enough is enough this is getting to expensive" or "This race isn't for me as I am not a top dog contender, which this race is obviosly geared to." Those are "quotes" that I think we want to avoid so that we get all levels of competition, newbies and "pro" caliber alike. It is a fine balance of demands, and a tough thing to judge given that most of the contenders probably will not or do not even view this or any other boards. I may be wrong, but that is my opinion on reactions we could see.
Butch Kummer
New member
I'm not sure that Pro-IT has caught on anywhere other than Atlanta Region. There is the CCPS (Carolina Cup Pro Series) that is very similar in concept, plus the ECR also has end-of-year payouts as well but features races of 90 minutes or more. I'm not sure if the FES (Florida Enduro Series) has payouts or not, but I do know that no one has quit their day job and is now making a living driving any of these series.
Pro-IT is an Atlanta Region series, has been around at least ten years and was originally formed to provide extra car count (i.e. - entry fees) at our National events. It started out averaging 50 cars per event when the IT boom first hit here in SEDIV, but over the last few year the number has dropped to a 30-35 car per race average. Except for the ARRC, the field is largely made up of local (Atlanta area) drivers. We added SM a couple of years ago to bolster the numbers and for 2007 I'm looking to add ITO and ITU as well (our catch-all classes that give the non-SCCA cars a place to run in Atlanta Region events).
As far as why the concept has not caught in other areas, I can only imagine it has to do with the drivers of the traditional classes being "reluctant" (that's putting it mildly) to accept providing additional track time for a select number of drivers (as evidenced by the discussions for the 2007 MARRS). We face the same criticism here in Atlanta, but so far (I think) we've been able to provide an adequate balance of track time for the IT and non-IT drivers. There may be some non-IT folks that stay away because of the perception of reduced track time, but would enough of them start showing up to more than offset the financial loss should we drop the Pro-IT series? We also have National drivers that gripe about sharing the weekend with IT cars even though they still get the GCR-mandated 45 minutes of practice/qualifying time. Attendance at our National events remains pretty constant (and actually increased a bit in 2006), so it must not be TOO much of a detriment to them.
Butch Kummer
Atlanta Region Competition Director
dj10
New member
I'm not sure that Pro-IT has caught on anywhere other than Atlanta Region. There is the CCPS (Carolina Cup Pro Series) that is very similar in concept, plus the ECR also has end-of-year payouts as well but features races of 90 minutes or more. I'm not sure if the FES (Florida Enduro Series) has payouts or not, but I do know that no one has quit their day job and is now making a living driving any of these series.
Pro-IT is an Atlanta Region series, has been around at least ten years and was originally formed to provide extra car count (i.e. - entry fees) at our National events. It started out averaging 50 cars per event when the IT boom first hit here in SEDIV, but over the last few year the number has dropped to a 30-35 car per race average. Except for the ARRC, the field is largely made up of local (Atlanta area) drivers. We added SM a couple of years ago to bolster the numbers and for 2007 I'm looking to add ITO and ITU as well (our catch-all classes that give the non-SCCA cars a place to run in Atlanta Region events).
As far as why the concept has not caught in other areas, I can only imagine it has to do with the drivers of the traditional classes being "reluctant" (that's putting it mildly) to accept providing additional track time for a select number of drivers (as evidenced by the discussions for the 2007 MARRS). We face the same criticism here in Atlanta, but so far (I think) we've been able to provide an adequate balance of track time for the IT and non-IT drivers. There may be some non-IT folks that stay away because of the perception of reduced track time, but would enough of them start showing up to more than offset the financial loss should we drop the Pro-IT series? We also have National drivers that gripe about sharing the weekend with IT cars even though they still get the GCR-mandated 45 minutes of practice/qualifying time. Attendance at our National events remains pretty constant (and actually increased a bit in 2006), so it must not be TOO much of a detriment to them.
Butch Kummer
Atlanta Region Competition Director [/b]
Butch, thanks for helping me understand this. It might not mean a hill of beans, but I want to take my hat off to the Atlanta Region for their leadership & intuitive thinking for PRO IT. I just wished I wouldn't have to travel so far for your events. I beleive this idea you guys came up with is great and I could only hope that some of the other regions would have the same insight. I'm sure this is more work for you, I can only hope your members appriciate it. Have you ever tried to do some local marketing for your events and have you any success?
I hope I'm able to get to a couple of your events in 07.
Keep up the good work
Dan
"Build it and they will come"
I doubt you will see anything run at Mid-O under $300 this year. A regular double regional sponsored by SCCA with 7 race groups at any race track in the country will get you a max of 1 hour 30 minute of track time per group. Our proposal is for 2 hrs. 30 minutes per race group for the weekend.
Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chair
Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chair
gran racing
Super Moderator
Todd,
Let's leave the NASA Championship out of this discussion. They did a heck of a job promoting, getting companies to sponsor the event, make it a family event (some of the other stuff they had going on for kids, and crew members was awesome!).
Had I not wrecked my car prior to that, I was going to attend for sure.
Although I was giving Andy a hard time (I understand where you were going with your point, Ray's point, yet was being a bit of a PITA
), as long as you keep it to what locals are used to paying you should be fine. At the same point, I'll admit that I look at the entry fee and don't <insert choose not to> look at the entire costs all too often.
Let's leave the NASA Championship out of this discussion. They did a heck of a job promoting, getting companies to sponsor the event, make it a family event (some of the other stuff they had going on for kids, and crew members was awesome!).
Had I not wrecked my car prior to that, I was going to attend for sure.Although I was giving Andy a hard time (I understand where you were going with your point, Ray's point, yet was being a bit of a PITA
), as long as you keep it to what locals are used to paying you should be fine. At the same point, I'll admit that I look at the entry fee and don't <insert choose not to> look at the entire costs all too often.
StephenB
New member
If you read back to TODDS post this is what he said which has DRASTICALLY CHANGED after my participation in this thread about prices and input.
I then mentioned that IF it was a PRO event we should have CASH payouts to make it a real PRO event. Not just call it a pro event so we can say it is. If you want to call it a pro event then to me that sounds like you want to attract Pro teams and drivers. To do this Money talks. To be honest I wouldn't attend an expensive PRO event. I never have as I can't compete at that level and I can't afford to compete at that level. I prefer the amatuer level hyped up events like the ARRC with contingencies. The Pro events they have had at LRP that have had cash payouts are very expensive and I have never attended. I never said I wanted cash payouts if it was going to stay amatuer and to be honest I prefer no payouts to keep the cost down!
I like the Idea of a double and yes $250 is a reasonable cost as I said. I NEVER said it was my limit or ceiling this was what ANDY said my ceiling was. again jsut to clarify I did use the word REASONABLE for both competitor and region. I also mentiond that I thought the "value was worth more" stating that our goal should be high attendance, I'm talking sold out fields of 50 cars, lets get SCCA's attention and show the whole racing comunity a great event! In my opinion if you want to attract people from far away were the cost is high for travel (Like andy and greg and others have said) you need to make the entry a no-brainer and make people say I NEED to race at that event. Not only do I get track time, It's cheaper than events around me, it has a huge feild of cars, and it's on an awesome track. I would probably attend at $50 even $75 more but anything after that would take convincing, looking at the preregistration list and PB&J. (If you hit $400 I am definetly out.) I'm not sure why everyone feels the need to rip me apart about $250 as I clearly stated normal prices for the surrounding tracks mostly within $50 of that price. I also gave you prices that demonstrated a $50.00 difference in price at the same track with a substantial % less in attendance. I'm sure someone has the real statistics on that and since several on this board love to find loopholes and quotes I am not even going to try and guess as that will come back and haunt me. I still think a No-Brainer price is $250 (And if you feel the need to quote me saying that I said "I MAY attend at $250 or less" that is because that is a no-brainer price in my mind and now all I have to do is convince the Girl that we are vacationing in Ohio because I would NEED to go race at that price)
A VERY small % of people post here and I think we all have different views including the silent lurkers here. I am probably in the minority on this board or even in our entire community as I do not live and budget my life around racing like several common posters here. If you feel like ripping me apart because I look at entry fees as a deciding factor feel free, If you feel like you need to point out the per mile or per Hr cost than fine do so. I look at how much money the entry fee is going to cost me and if can I afford that. The costs to maintain my car I do not associate with a particular event. And the trip and all costs including time off of work associated with the trip itself come out of my vacation budget so NONE of them honestly matter to me. We take our Vacation money and treat everything other than my track time as a vacation together. Kinda like going to Montreal to watch F1 only I would be going to watch an IT race. And yes I did attend my first ARRC as a spectator in 2000 then later decided I could spend the extra $250 to participate and still spectate. I would not have participated if the entry was $400.
I honestly don't mean to offend anyone as I just mentioned a suggestion to increase participation #'s. I'll check back in a few days so if I don't reply to your concerns on my judgment or opinions don't get upset, I'll respond when I have time so please have fun and try to enjoy yourselvs Its almost Christmas!
Stephen
I then mentioned that IF it was a PRO event we should have CASH payouts to make it a real PRO event. Not just call it a pro event so we can say it is. If you want to call it a pro event then to me that sounds like you want to attract Pro teams and drivers. To do this Money talks. To be honest I wouldn't attend an expensive PRO event. I never have as I can't compete at that level and I can't afford to compete at that level. I prefer the amatuer level hyped up events like the ARRC with contingencies. The Pro events they have had at LRP that have had cash payouts are very expensive and I have never attended. I never said I wanted cash payouts if it was going to stay amatuer and to be honest I prefer no payouts to keep the cost down!
I like the Idea of a double and yes $250 is a reasonable cost as I said. I NEVER said it was my limit or ceiling this was what ANDY said my ceiling was. again jsut to clarify I did use the word REASONABLE for both competitor and region. I also mentiond that I thought the "value was worth more" stating that our goal should be high attendance, I'm talking sold out fields of 50 cars, lets get SCCA's attention and show the whole racing comunity a great event! In my opinion if you want to attract people from far away were the cost is high for travel (Like andy and greg and others have said) you need to make the entry a no-brainer and make people say I NEED to race at that event. Not only do I get track time, It's cheaper than events around me, it has a huge feild of cars, and it's on an awesome track. I would probably attend at $50 even $75 more but anything after that would take convincing, looking at the preregistration list and PB&J. (If you hit $400 I am definetly out.) I'm not sure why everyone feels the need to rip me apart about $250 as I clearly stated normal prices for the surrounding tracks mostly within $50 of that price. I also gave you prices that demonstrated a $50.00 difference in price at the same track with a substantial % less in attendance. I'm sure someone has the real statistics on that and since several on this board love to find loopholes and quotes I am not even going to try and guess as that will come back and haunt me. I still think a No-Brainer price is $250 (And if you feel the need to quote me saying that I said "I MAY attend at $250 or less" that is because that is a no-brainer price in my mind and now all I have to do is convince the Girl that we are vacationing in Ohio because I would NEED to go race at that price)
A VERY small % of people post here and I think we all have different views including the silent lurkers here. I am probably in the minority on this board or even in our entire community as I do not live and budget my life around racing like several common posters here. If you feel like ripping me apart because I look at entry fees as a deciding factor feel free, If you feel like you need to point out the per mile or per Hr cost than fine do so. I look at how much money the entry fee is going to cost me and if can I afford that. The costs to maintain my car I do not associate with a particular event. And the trip and all costs including time off of work associated with the trip itself come out of my vacation budget so NONE of them honestly matter to me. We take our Vacation money and treat everything other than my track time as a vacation together. Kinda like going to Montreal to watch F1 only I would be going to watch an IT race. And yes I did attend my first ARRC as a spectator in 2000 then later decided I could spend the extra $250 to participate and still spectate. I would not have participated if the entry was $400.
I honestly don't mean to offend anyone as I just mentioned a suggestion to increase participation #'s. I'll check back in a few days so if I don't reply to your concerns on my judgment or opinions don't get upset, I'll respond when I have time so please have fun and try to enjoy yourselvs Its almost Christmas!
Stephen
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Stephen, this is what you said:
When you say 'or less', you have given us the impression that anything over $250 you won't even 'consider'. Regardless, the point was more about looking at the racing efforts we all put together on a global basis, not in an individual miopic sense. No offense intended, your program is your program. Nobody is ripping you apart, just trying to convince you that this could be a case of 'penny wise, dollar foolish'. YMMV.
dj10
New member
Stephen,
Nobody's ripping you apart for anything you type here, or at least I won't.
I had typed about inviting the PRO IT up to race with this event. Just like ARRC, it does NOT drive up the events costs because like @ ARRC, it has seperate race fees and only the people that race it would benefit from the race as well as incur the expenses. This would not effect you even if they did run it. From all indications it does not look like they even would entertain the idea.
Todd did mention that MO has rasied their prices and the cost maybe $300.00 for the IT event. Since I was paying between 275 and 290 last year, it shouldn't break my piggy bank. There should be a lot of seat time with this.
Nobody's ripping you apart for anything you type here, or at least I won't.
I had typed about inviting the PRO IT up to race with this event. Just like ARRC, it does NOT drive up the events costs because like @ ARRC, it has seperate race fees and only the people that race it would benefit from the race as well as incur the expenses. This would not effect you even if they did run it. From all indications it does not look like they even would entertain the idea.
Todd did mention that MO has rasied their prices and the cost maybe $300.00 for the IT event. Since I was paying between 275 and 290 last year, it shouldn't break my piggy bank. There should be a lot of seat time with this.
Dave Burchfield
New member
Kevin,
You coming down this way again in the next couple of months? I have this cold one here waiting for you.
Dave
You coming down this way again in the next couple of months? I have this cold one here waiting for you.
Dave
Hi guys, though you would like to look at this another way. This is the PROPOSAL as it stands with the Race Committee. and to be presented to the board in January.
Saturday morning 30 minute qualifying all groups.
Saturday Afternoon 1st race 45 minutes all groups. Top Three each class Trophy.
Sunday Morning 30 minute race all groups. Top Three each class Trophy.
Sunday Afternoon 45 minute race all groups ( Overall champ crowned for each class down through a yet to be determined place) ( Say 10th???) Plus, Top Three each class Trophy.
"Top Three trophies" each class each race. may actually be Gold, Silver and Bronze medals. ( Repeat winners will have plenty of hardware to show off with. ) LOL
Points system ( TBA) but all FOUR sessions count towards the overall. Each class.
How does that look?
Todd
Saturday morning 30 minute qualifying all groups.
Saturday Afternoon 1st race 45 minutes all groups. Top Three each class Trophy.
Sunday Morning 30 minute race all groups. Top Three each class Trophy.
Sunday Afternoon 45 minute race all groups ( Overall champ crowned for each class down through a yet to be determined place) ( Say 10th???) Plus, Top Three each class Trophy.
"Top Three trophies" each class each race. may actually be Gold, Silver and Bronze medals. ( Repeat winners will have plenty of hardware to show off with. ) LOL
Points system ( TBA) but all FOUR sessions count towards the overall. Each class.
How does that look?
Todd
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Typically it is your fast lap from Saturday afternoons race. Sunday mornings race serves as a qualifier for Sunday afternoon. Each race (individual) has to have a qualifier per the Sanction rules. If this is operating under two sanctions for the two races that is.
StephenB
New member
That sounds great! I really really like the fact that it is a timed race and not a certain number of laps. It keeps the scheduling much easier and predictable to plan your day. And I can stick a stove timer in my car and not loose track of how much time I have left. I always get confused in the car trying to count laps after about lap 4 I wish all regionals went to that instead of saying you will get a 15 lap race. It would help stay on schedule with so many groups crammed into 1 day.
Thanks fo rthe update,
Stephen
I wish all regionals went to that instead of saying you will get a 15 lap race. It would help stay on schedule with so many groups crammed into 1 day. Thanks fo rthe update,
Stephen