IT National? Anyone else have this experience at a driver's meeting this year?

Well usually I do not comment on these issues. But I have got to add that if IT goes national, manufacturers will be more interested in the class. Which then gets them meddling in the rules process. You all may remember Mazda having a hissy about the showroom stock rules and a subsequent comment made by a fed up BOD or CRB member. You may not like it but this club is a politcal animal. A couple years ago in GT, Toyota pushed and got annular discharge injection OK'd. Many had asked and we were always told to dangerous. Without member input in some back door deal, Toyota got it pushed thru because of "packaging issues". To say the GT community was pissed is an understatement. The BOD and the CRB both get swayed when shmoosed by an OEM. It shouldn't happen but it does. Personally I hope IT goes national. Then IT can be the National offices piggy bank and they can screw with your rules daily as they see fit. I think if we lose the regional/national distinction you will see an overall drop in total interest in the club. I believe NASA will be far more attractive to many. So whats in the best interest of the club?
Chris Howard

Here are the two flaws I see in your points Chris: YMMV

1. With the 5-year rule, I see little-to-no Manufacturer interest. 'Winning on Sunday, selling on Monday' doesn't apply if you can't find the model you just saw win in the showroom. In GT, at least some of the cars LOOK like current cars with bodywork updates etc.

2. If IT is the cash cow, draws the most drivers of any class in amature road-racing and is heralded as one of the best and most stable rulesets - why would they mess with it from a rules perspective?

To me, all the futzing with Prod and GT over the years is an attempt to baid-aid open wounds. At some point, if you want to heal, you have to let the CRB operate...but the legacy drivers just seem to be afraid/reluctant to let them...and guess what? If you don't operate soon, they might have to amputate. And most times when you get rid of a problem area, it allows other areas to grow and flourish.

It all leads back to my main point - the traditional issues that 'fail' other classes don't really (or shouldn't) apply to IT.
 
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OK Boys, now I would like you guys to assume your ITAC role and take off your personal longjohns for a minute.

If you wouldn't mind, could you ITAC guys (just so we know you have an open mind)
list 5 or 6 things on each side of the issue?
You know the plusses you hope to see and the minuses that might take place.
Now this is from your SCCA PTB personality not your personal desires.

Like I posted earlier, an outsider would see most of the ITAC posters as being firmly entrenched in pushing IT towards the RunOFFs. When I brought this up I got the OH NO response.
The above little exercise would at least make some of us confident that you guys are aware of the good bad and ugly.
 
To me, all the futzing with Prod and GT over the years is an attempt to baid-aid open wounds. At some point, if you want to heal, you have to let the CRB operate...but the legacy drivers just seem to be afraid/reluctant to let them...and guess what? If you don't operate soon, they might have to amputate. And most times when you get rid of a problem area, it allows other areas to grow and flourish.

It all leads back to my main point - the traditional issues that 'fail' other classes don't really (or shouldn't) apply to IT.

Andy, once again I'm hearing Prod/GT have failed to fill the needs of the club and IT will do a better job. As a National class IT would more or less replace Prod. You feel that this new and expanded role for IT will solve some of the club's woes in it's national race program. You are looking at the "Big Picture" in the club, a good but rare viewpoint.

So if our goal is to "fix National Racing" or "help Club Racing" I see two approaches. One is to make IT a National class or eliminate the Regional/National distinction. No doubt this will increase participation in National racing and generate more Runoffs entry fees. The BOD would love this. They would also like to see Prod with it's difficult to administer rule set be replaced by IT. But now IT would have a whole new role in the club. It would have to serve everybody from the beginner and occasional low budget racers to the super high budget rule stretching National Championship contender. Can IT do everything and do it well?

A second option if we are addressing the "Big Picture" is to acknowledge the the success of IT and Regional Racing and preserve it. And focus our changes on Production and a to a lesser extent GT where the problems lie. As you said with your band-aid open wound analogy Prod is extremely resistant to needed changes. But in my opinion treating the sick part of the club is much prefer to attempting to transplant IT into National racing. It is entirely possible and in my opinion easier to redefine Prod or Prepaired to serve as a step just above IT for IT drivers to go National/ Runoffs racing.

The job of the ITAC is not to save club racing. The ITAC's job is to do what is best for IT. Changing Improved Touring to solve other problems in the club is not what is best for IT.
 
A couple years ago in GT, Toyota pushed and got annular discharge injection OK'd. Many had asked and we were always told to dangerous. Without member input in some back door deal, Toyota got it pushed thru because of "packaging issues". To say the GT community was pissed is an understatement. The BOD and the CRB both get swayed when shmoosed by an OEM. It shouldn't happen but it does.

Chris Howard

Do you know this for a fact, or is it that Toyota and there massive engineering and technical department was able to prove to the SCCA that there was no danger with there cars for this and, therefore, get it approved for competition?

I've learned there are always (3) sides to stories on the internet, and the most dangerous one is the one being spread by people not in the know on the 'net.

Sorry for going slightly off topic.
 
Well I will start off by saying I hope your morning improves Bill and that you don't bite anyone elses head off. What happens behind closed doors can only be speculated about. The CRB did not divulge any details. It was just done. And truly my info comes thru the grape vine as that is the only info let out. After all, everything in this club is a big f'in secret. Hang around a few more years, you'll get the hang of it.
Chris Howard
 
OK, Mac, I''l play...

Right now...and that's an important qualifier, due to the completely pie in the sky scenario,

IF:
- The entire Regional/National program were examined and rebuilt, losing the two tiered makeup, but allowing regions freedom,
and

IF:
-The qualification process wasn't such a joke,

Then:

Cons:

  • - Possible increased pressure to modify the cornerstone philosophies and dork with the ruleset. (I think there WOULD be increased pressure, but I know the ITAC can take the heat, and I *think* the CRB knows what makes us tick, takes ownership of that, and will run interference if the BoD pushes.)
  • - Possible issues in sourcing certain archaic parts and specs for determining legality. We have an out there, but it might be a bigger headache than it is now, only because nobody has gotten around to drawing the line. An alternative might be that we have races (see above "IF"s) called "National qualifiers" where certain vintage or models can run, but earn no points. (The "sorry, we did the best we could, but..." plan)
  • - Possible alienation of some of the "rank and file" based on perceptions of increased cost/effort/and loss of the "casual factor".
Pro or Con

  • - The single location championship system that we have now is questionable based on the geographic issues facing the Wet Coast. The IT Triple Crown concept is a great solution. Would the Runoffs doom it to an early demise, or would the architects include the Runoffs in the system?? (Could be a Con, OR a Pro, good or bad for IT, and the local regions supporting the program)

Pros:

  • - Best category gets to reap the rewards, as opposed to footing the bill. More possible races, more flexible schedule.(Good for IT)
  • - More attractive for those desiring their efforts to be measured against the best, could attract those who have been on the fence. More competitors can breed more competitors. (Good for IT, the regions, and the club)
  • - Increased attention to legality cleans up certain sketchy issues.(Good for IT)
  • - Increased exposure helps make a case for contingency programs. (no spec tire, + contingency programs = Good for IT)
  • - Best races at our big event, adds interest and could help recruit new racers, and help reverse the "graying" of the club. (Good for the club, and of course, IT.)
Non issues:

  • -Manufacturer involvement. As long as the CRB respects what they have, (IT ruleset) I see the manufacturer involvement as coming in the form of contingencies, or "racer net" programs, (ie. Mazdaspeed) which might be good for all of IT, not just the elite. Remember, the Mazda SS situation happened during the creation of a model, which the club approved then disapproved of. Nobody CAN create a model for IT, as we class cars five years old that are (obviously) existing.
  • -Expense/loss of finishing position at a static expense/effort level. Expense is a function of popularity. Popularity varies regionally, and can rise and fall at any time for a number of reasons. Just like anything, when the fast kid moves into the neighborhood, you have to up your game.
  • - Overly large fields causing regions headaches. Rare is the Region that complains about too much business. Given freedom (See "IF"s above) they will manage, and profit.




-
 
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Andy, once again I'm hearing Prod/GT have failed to fill the needs of the club and IT will do a better job. As a National class IT would more or less replace Prod. You feel that this new and expanded role for IT will solve some of the club's woes in it's national race program. You are looking at the "Big Picture" in the club, a good but rare viewpoint.

So if our goal is to "fix National Racing" or "help Club Racing" I see two approaches. One is to make IT a National class or eliminate the Regional/National distinction. No doubt this will increase participation in National racing and generate more Runoffs entry fees. The BOD would love this. They would also like to see Prod with it's difficult to administer rule set be replaced by IT. But now IT would have a whole new role in the club. It would have to serve everybody from the beginner and occasional low budget racers to the super high budget rule stretching National Championship contender. Can IT do everything and do it well?

A second option if we are addressing the "Big Picture" is to acknowledge the the success of IT and Regional Racing and preserve it. And focus our changes on Production and a to a lesser extent GT where the problems lie. As you said with your band-aid open wound analogy Prod is extremely resistant to needed changes. But in my opinion treating the sick part of the club is much prefer to attempting to transplant IT into National racing. It is entirely possible and in my opinion easier to redefine Prod or Prepaired to serve as a step just above IT for IT drivers to go National/ Runoffs racing.

The job of the ITAC is not to save club racing. The ITAC's job is to do what is best for IT. Changing Improved Touring to solve other problems in the club is not what is best for IT.

And I fail again at getting a coherent thought across. I tend to reply to individual 'problems' and in this case, we really need to know the plan before moving.

When I mention the other classes, I do so as proof of what role comp adjustments and old-school attitudes can do to a category. These things have nothing to do with Nat/Reg racing, they have to do with the categorical standards and rules. IT doesn't have these problems.

I also am not a proponent of IT going National to 'save Club racing'. While it may be a nice byproduct, it isn't the reason I would vote for it. IT going National does need (IMHO) to be good for IT for it to be something I support. My past points are simply that I don't have the fear that others do about it ruining IT. Take Chris's example above. Solid and traditional thinking - but in my counterpoint I submit that those are moot when you apply them to the IT category - thereby taking away another 2 'issues' with a class going National in my mind.

Why would IT replace Prod? All that would happen is that 5 popular classes get added to the docket. Regional/National will never go away because we have tons of 'Regional only' classes that aren't in the GCR. When are you gonna run SPU, SPO, GTA, SSM, NCF, Legends, ITE, etc, etc? At NON-National qualifying events ----- yup ---- Regionals. and that is ok.

All this is about for me is weighing the pro's and cons of taking IT National in a bubble. I don't really care how it affects other classes. If it has a negative effect on some, then those classes where in need of a kick in the pants. Some of the National participation numbers are EMBARRASING.

I don't want to generate more RO entires for Topeka. I want to generate more interest in IT and the SCCA. - and I think taking IT National has the potential to do that.
 
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.......... It would have to serve everybody from the beginner and occasional low budget racers to the super high budget rule stretching National Championship contender. Can IT do everything and do it well?

Yes, why not? Doesn't Spec Racer do it? And I see lots of casual Prod efforts run for next to nothing winning trophies. Some of them are newbies who are thrilled to be taking home medals. "Entry leve" and "low budget" are all about aligning expectations with reality. That's not limited to any specific class or category.

And focus our changes on Production and a to a lesser extent GT where the problems lie. As you said with your band-aid open wound analogy Prod is extremely resistant to needed changes. But in my opinion treating the sick part of the club is much prefer to attempting to transplant IT into National racing. It is entirely possible and in my opinion easier to redefine Prod or Prepaired to serve as a step just above IT for IT drivers to go National/ Runoffs racing.

I was with you until that statement, LOL. I beg to differ. We've been over the reasons, but, that tune has been sung over and over. And for whatever reasons, the required surgeries have been declined. IMO, the racers who have defended their turf, while ignoring the big picture will not allow the changes needed, unless faced with extinction. I think it's likely too late for many. And from the clubs perspective, I can see the desire to not allow broken parts to capsize or drag the ship under.

I also suggest that while the carrot of the Runoffs is a powerful one for many, most have decided to stay in IT, and one reason is their (from what I've been told) dislike of the Prod ruleset, and their happiness with IT's. I'm not buying the "step above IT" concept at all.

The job of the ITAC is not to save club racing. The ITAC's job is to do what is best for IT. Changing Improved Touring to solve other problems in the club is not what is best for IT.

Right, and the job of the PAC is the same, yet.....

The ITAC DOES need to make it's recommendations based on the health of the category, but it can not do so while blindly ignoring the health of the club as a whole.
 
...If you wouldn't mind, could you ITAC guys (just so we know you have an open mind) list 5 or 6 things on each side of the issue? ...

I'll dig into this later when I have more time but I'd suggest there's a flaw in your question:

Given that [whatever] might happen, not everyone agrees that [whatever] is positive or negative.

For example, I think it's safe to expect that IT would get more competitive at the front of any given grid - Regional OR National. I think that's a good thing but it's been clearly stated here that some think that would be a bad outcome.

K
 
Well I will start off by saying I hope your morning improves Bill and that you don't bite anyone elses head off. What happens behind closed doors can only be speculated about. The CRB did not divulge any details. It was just done. And truly my info comes thru the grape vine as that is the only info let out. After all, everything in this club is a big f'in secret. Hang around a few more years, you'll get the hang of it.
Chris Howard

Chris:

Sorry if that seemed like an attack. I didn't mean it to be. I have been around awhile (8 years in SCCA, 6 years racing IT) and have learned to get involved if I want to know what is going on. I've also been around enough that, no matter what happens, there are always conspiracy theories...

I just had to call this one because, well, it is my job here at work. Fact based decision making. Without the facts, it is not possible to make any decisions about how that was made.

Now, granted, I understand the secretiveness of it all doesn't help, but then we just need to encourage the committees (like the ITAC is, here) to be more open. (Though, they just get attacked more often because of it.)
 
For example, I think it's safe to expect that IT would get more competitive at the front of any given grid - Regional OR National. I think that's a good thing but it's been clearly stated here that some think that would be a bad outcome.

K

there's a difference between on-track competition and bankroll competition.
 
Here's an off the wall idea. I haven't fully thought it out but I'm just going to throw it out there. What about a national IT class. In other words, sort of like the IT2 idea or something of that nature. In this way we preserve the regional IT class but offer those with national aspirations a chance to go to the runoffs. What about the regional version not allowing sperical bearings or open ECUs or sound deadening removal and some of the more controversial modifications. Let the national class run a little lighter and maybe allow a little wider wheels or even slicks. Make cross over possible. So a guy could buy an extra set of wheels, remove a little ballast and run. Regional legal cars could run the national class unchanged to try it out. Serious national guys would make the few not easily reversed mods that would preclude them from regional racing.
Kirk mentioned IT displacing Production. Is this possibly (at least partialy) the reason the club is offering IT national status? Instead of having to fix prod, let IT push them out? I like the idea of a class positioned between Prod and IT. Or maybe between SS and IT, or maybe both. (with a clear path between them) What about the braintrust around here coming up with a prodution alternative class. I see the popularity of bomber classes in circle track and sort of envy that. Offer the low buck guys something truely low buck. I watched you guys whip ITR together and know this group could come up with some good stuff.
 
How do we tell one from another? What's the difference? Which one do you think I do?

Perceptions matter.

K

it's pretty easy to tell. when 1-10 on the grid are all qualified within 1s, that's on track competition. when $40/gal gas starts showing up, that's a good indicator bankroll competition is taking place.

you can have one without the other.
 
It seems correct to mention within this thread that the great NE Division National at New Hampshier Speedway had a grand total of eight (8) Production cars. Dam, maybe we do need IT cars to make it look like a show.:o
 
Here's an off the wall idea. I haven't fully thought it out but I'm just going to throw it out there. What about a national IT class. In other words, sort of like the IT2 idea or something of that nature. In this way we preserve the regional IT class but offer those with national aspirations a chance to go to the runoffs. What about the regional version not allowing sperical bearings or open ECUs or sound deadening removal and some of the more controversial modifications. Let the national class run a little lighter and maybe allow a little wider wheels or even slicks. Make cross over possible. So a guy could buy an extra set of wheels, remove a little ballast and run. Regional legal cars could run the national class unchanged to try it out. Serious national guys would make the few not easily reversed mods that would preclude them from regional racing.

Holy crap, guys! You don't need to artificially preclude national competitors from regional racing. They typically won't do regional races at all. They have enough weekends booked, they don't like the shorter races, they don't like being on track with people on their novice permit, etc, etc.

Even in the occasional cases where there is a regional/national weekend (maybe that's more common where you are, I don't know), most national drivers don't enter the regional races. Some do, maybe to get extra sessions, but they typically won't run the regional race. Check your local stats, see if it's the same there as here.

But, on the off chance that a national guy chooses to run some regionals, why the heck is that so bad? I know that for me, getting my butt kicked makes me go faster.
 
Holy crap, guys! You don't need to artificially preclude national competitors from regional racing.
Umm.. that wasn't really my idea. And it's not guys... it's just me doing some blue sky thinking. I just like the idea of a IT style class between prod and IT or between SS and IT.
But, on the off chance that a national guy chooses to run some regionals, why the heck is that so bad?
Never said it would be bad. Like I said earlier, I have nothing against IT going national. Josh, I appreciate you replying to me. (nobody else does) I'll just crawl back under my rock now.
 
there's a difference between on-track competition and bankroll competition.

How do we tell one from another? What's the difference? Which one do you think I do?

Perceptions matter.

K

I submit that difference varies depending on your bank account.

I think it was George Carlin, the comedian, who once said, (something like) "There are two kinds of drivers: idiots and maniacs. Anyone slower than me is a complete idiot, and anyone faster is a maniac"
 
it's pretty easy to tell. when 1-10 on the grid are all qualified within 1s, that's on track competition. when $40/gal gas starts showing up, that's a good indicator bankroll competition is taking place.

you can have one without the other.


What classes have this type of on track competition?
 
Well it took 17 pages but I finally am convinced that SM type national problems could never happen to IT. The IT PTB is way too connected to let anything go wrong. Disregard my previous posts in this thread. They were written when I was totally out of my head (happens often.) I am casting my lot with the "IT to The RunOFFS" crowd.

BTW does anybody have a line on a Flyin Miata Turbo kit, I am thinking ITE is gonna look mighty good in the near future?

Bye, call me when the details get hammered out, the big picture direction seems to be all set.:dead_horse:
 
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