NASCAR Bans Hutchens Device

Great post Kirk. I agree 100%. And you are correct with respect to my rhetorical question; true, if we blow away the competition on the 100G sled SFI will not issue a certification.

You also touched on another area that makes this unworkable, the fact that any variation must receive additional certification, and be retested every year. Since there are now a total of 48 different configurations for an Isaac system, we would need to conduct 144 crash tests each year (yup, the same old frontal stuff) just to stay current.

We could, of course, build an SFI version but it would not work as well. The extra risk exposure would require a price premium. What a great deal for the racer: pay more, get less.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
It's no different than SportsCar allocating space in the annual safety equipment "buyers' guide" based on how much we paid for advertising.

Actually, IMHO it is. SFI certs turn into requirements in actual use.

I did a lot of research into the belt issue and before I could write to national they already made a decision. What I find most appalling is that when I received the test protocol from SFI (I wrote and asked for it), it did not even match (in any way) to what was written up in Sports Car.

There's more I could go into and have in the past, but I call BS on the belt issue.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
George,

I believe Kirk is referring to the shakedown nature of the arrangement. This is common with publications who hint that they are considering including your product in an article, then in the next breath ask what your ad budget is. We bought an ad in last year's SportsCar safety issue and were included in the article. We are not buying an ad this year. Let's see what happens.

In the case of SFI, the organization serves as a CYA function for sanctioning bodies, and as a stamp of approval for manufacturers. It's an appealing arrangement. As long as everyone meets the standard it's no one's fault when something goes wrong. After all, we all agreed it was the way to go. Not bad; in most cases I would agree that a standard is better than no standard.

But, there are two problems with this thinking:

1) Products that exceed the standard are, against all logic, outlawed. The Isaac system on the 100G sled is one example. Another is the fact that high performance harness systems utilized in aviation and NASA application don't meet SFI belt specs because they are too good.

We also see this in the medical businesses. There was a time when it was illegal to provide to a surgeon an artificial joint prosthesis (hip for example) if it was custom made to the patient's bone geometry, even though it was clearly better for the patient than an off-the-shelf design. Why? Because FDA approval required a statistical sample, but if it was custom made, there was only one. It took, literally, an act of Congress before these products were legal.

This mindset of meeting the standard continues today with all medical product development. The joke in the industry is that FDA approval is a stamp of obsolescence.

2) There is little if any motivation to optimize the standard, regardless of how silly it becomes. It doesn't matter if it makes sense, just as long as it is there. It's like the single release rule in SCCA. I have spoken to SCCA officials who will pound the table defending a 40-yeal old rule they acknowledge is behind the times, claiming it is necessary for rapid egress, while admiting that getting out of the seat means nothing if you can't get out of the car. They don't care if Jeff Altenberg's HANS device got snagged in the window net of his burning car, and he couldn't get out until the net melted--AT AN SCCA EVENT! I kid you not.

Some people's love for rules/standards is so great that if the standard called for driving around the track with a dead chicken glued to our helmet, we'd all be driving around the track with a dead chicken glued to our helmet.

Standards are convenient, no one has to think. The problem with this one is that someone is going to get hurt--and then the lawyers will show up.

Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com


[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited January 06, 2005).]
 
...and
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/01-0 5-2005/0002770439&EDATE=://http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/s...02770439&EDATE=

Here's the part I like:

"...the R3 was the first head and neck restraint system to exceed the SFI 38.1 specification after it was written." (Emphasis added.)

Hubbard/Downing says the HANS device is the "first ever head and neck support to be certified by the SFI."

To our knowledge, both of these statements are correct. Wow. Those guys at H/D are so good, they were able to test to the SFI spec before it was even written! I wonder how they knew what the Spec was going to be?

Then again, technically, "head and neck support" is a registered trademark of Hubbard/Downing, so if they received the SFI cert a hundred years from now, it would still be the first.

Don't ya just love marketing?

[/smarta$$mode]

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited January 06, 2005).]
 
Relevant or not, IMHO, I don't race professionaly any more, don't race for Nascar and have the freedom to choose what ever safety equipment is available to me, as long as it is "approved" by the sanctioning body I choose to run with. Thus, it is my responsibilty to research and choose my equipment. When I worked for a small racing school, I was the safety instructor and was consistantly asked how much to spend on a helmet. My usual responce was, "how much is your head worth?"....that said, I have fortunately been introduced to the Isaac's device and have come to my own conclution that is the way I'm going, I don't care what the SFI ratings or non ratings are, it's my neck. I also have a custom suit that is Nomex111 outside and PBI Kevlar inside. Only rated by the SFI for the Nomex, but I know better, that's all that counts. Some may question my maturity, but I am an adult, I am responsible for my own actions. I feel confidant that I have chosen the best equipment I can afford, as we all should. I feel safety is first, where I should spend my money before car parts, etc. We do need as much information as we can get, regardless where it comes from and the SFI is a necessary "evil" we need, as someone has to do the testing and info sharing. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world. Sorry for the soap box, but at least I feel better for getting it off my chest!!
David
 
a corner worker told me that 2 drivers had lost testicles after hard impacts using the hutcinson device.at that point i bought the hans device.i have no proof to back this up but it sure looks like it can happen when the straps tighten when your head hurdles foward. rick
 
I heard Sterling Martin had a similar problem with his Hutchens device after a crash in NASCAR.


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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
 
How anyone who races at the NASCAR level can rationalize using a Hutchens is beyond me.

I'm sorry, but sometimes you have to call a spade a spade, and that thing just looks like it's trouble.

I know, I know...."But it's been tested" an owner would defend...but I ask this....did the testing occur on dummies that were anatomically correct? Hmmmm?

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
I believe the reports of testicular injuries with the Hutches device are true--same problem you can have with 5-point belts. The 6-point version solves that problem.

The webbing products actually work rather well if you crank them down very tightly.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
What I find funny are the people who try to tell me NADSCAR is on the leading edge of safety.....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
George,

You would be amused at some of the mail we get on that very subject. Since I must maintain a certain diplomacy in a public forum, I won't relay them here. An e-mail may be worth your time, however.

G
 
Originally posted by Mattberg:
"A head and neck restraint needs to compliment the system that it is working in. Early testing on HANS Devices show an increase in both neck tension and HIC when used in an entire system with a head rest. (SAE Motorsports: Melvin / Hubert Gramling). This has also been shown to be the case in independent testing done on stock car set-ups with the HANS device. In back to back tests run on the same safety cell, have shown that the differences between carbon devices and strap harnesses is greatly reduced. The strap device systems normally decrease neck tension vs the baseline, while the HANS device neck tension has been shown to increase because of the interaction with the entire system."

Matt,

What is the source of this quote? Just curious.

Thanks.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
Originally posted by gsbaker:
George,

You would be amused at some of the mail we get on that very subject. Since I must maintain a certain diplomacy in a public forum, I won't relay them here. An e-mail may be worth your time, however.

G

Oh cool!

Send it to: [email protected]


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by gsbaker:
Matt,

What is the source of this quote? Just curious. Thanks.

Matt has posted that quote on several different boards, but when challenged on the source, he has resorted to what amounts to the dictionary definition of 'eqivocation'.

To quote Thorndike-Barnhart - "equivocate - use expressions of double meaning in order to mislead".

At least his style is consistant. Get past the obnoxious bluster and you'll find that he's 'factually challenged', too.
 
Well you can take a shot at Matt if you like but is the source is right in what he wrote:

(SAE Motorsports: Melvin / Hubert Gramling)

Sometimes you all should look at the message not just who is delivering it.
 
Joe, I enjoy Matt face to face talking whatever. If people have met him face to face he may be a little aesier to understand. Maybe???????
wink.gif
How ever about the only time Matt posts on this site is when he has a desire to trash someone or something.
frown.gif
He starts a lot of pi$$ing matcnes on the Production site & draws in those who just can't resist.

Another side subject. Someone posted something about a head & neck restraint being required in SCCA for year 2006. When I attempt to enter the SCCA site GCR to look up the rule as was posted 15.17. something I get the "This program has performed an illegal operation bla, bla........." Do others get the same rejection or do you get in to the GCR section?

Have Fun
wink.gif

David
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">SCCA for year 2006</font>

Lets see lasts years convention was pimping these things hard so i would guess there is probably something to that rumor. I Don't have an issue with the need for them..( I will be purchasing something this year) I have an issue with a certification that means nothing other than forcing me to spend more money. I don't want to purchase a hutchens or anyother device if SCCA is going to be strong armed or purchased into only allowing 1 device... David you know me well enough to know I don't tow anybodies line but sometimes you just can't look the other way while your wallet is constantly being lifted.
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
Sometimes you all should look at the message not just who is delivering it.

I'll choose to discount any messenger I please, thank you.

Does the passage he quoted totally represent the meaning and scope of the whole report ? No...because that just wouldn't suit his agenda...whatever 'that' might be at this moment. E-QUIV-O-CATE.

Regardless, the message is irrelevant. The messenger has no standing here, other than to provide irrational amusement. It's like watching monkeys in the zoo.
 
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