NASCAR Bans Hutchens Device

I think it would be a great idea. And each manufacturer should have a link on their website to it.

Getting manufacturers to "subscribe" will be tricky, I imagine. I can think of only one off the top of my head that would be willing to "show all"..........

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
I kind of hate to put you on the spot Gregg, and apologize if the answer is either more complex than you want to go into, or you don't want to go into for other reasons, but...

Despite my loathing of SFI, why doesn't Isaac just join? That would probably mean instant approval.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by Geo:
I kind of hate to put you on the spot Gregg, and apologize if the answer is either more complex than you want to go into, or you don't want to go into for other reasons, but...

Despite my loathing of SFI, why doesn't Isaac just join? That would probably mean instant approval.



I kinda have to agree with George. My first impression about Isaac's situation with the SFI was you didn't want to "play their game", I personnally would not want to either, but it seems you must if you want to succeed further. I also feel they (SFI) are similiar to the FDA in the way they operate with new products, of which I've been involved with in the past. I prefer to not thinking of it as kissing ass, but a way, however unfortunate, to do business. I like your product, I think it is the best thing going, but to get it where it needs to be, ya gotta play the game. IMHO.

David
 
Originally posted by Geo:
Despite my loathing of SFI, why doesn't Isaac just join? That would probably mean instant approval.
I thought that was option 2 that Gregg asked for input on:
"2) Build an SFI version of the Isaac system. It wouldn’t work as well, but who cares?"


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Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR
 
If I read between the lines, SFI really doesn't care about safety.

If they really did, they would structure their deal differently.

Maybe I am naive and too idealistic, but to me, an SFI approval or certification is really meaningless.

An SFI cert. means to me that it meets certain specs, but whether they are meaningful, or not is another story, and the lack of an SFI cert means even less! The item could be better! Or worse! What good are they?

I realize they MUST do some good but I bet the layers and insurance adjusters are the only ones who will see the bright side on that....

(Playing devils advocate here.......)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited January 09, 2005).]
 
Originally posted by Eagle7:
I thought that was option 2 that Gregg asked for input on:
"2) Build an SFI version of the Isaac system. It wouldn’t work as well, but who cares?"

Marty,

We are interested in input on all of it. We are wide open to suggestions.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[edit, because I can't type]

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited January 09, 2005).]
 
Originally posted by lateapex911:
...Getting manufacturers to "subscribe" will be tricky, I imagine....

There may be a way to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. address the issue of bandwidth and manufacturers' sensitivity to releasing all the crash test info. This agency could assign performance ratings only if satisfied that it had all material data, but not put supporting documentation on the Web.

This is on par with SFI's "certification," but offers the advantage of enhanced public trust via the fact that no money changes hands.

There are many good marketing reasons for not opening one's komono all the way. We don't like it, but that's the reality.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
Originally posted by lateapex911:
If I read between the lines, SFI really doesn't care about safety.

If they really did, they would structure their deal differently.

Maybe I am naive and too idealistic, but to me, an SFI approval or certification is really meaningless.

An SFI cert. means to me that it meets certain specs, but whether they are meaningful, or not is another story, and the lack of an SFI cert means even less! The item could be better! Or worse! What good are they?

I realize they MUST do some good but I bet the layers and insurance adjusters are the only ones who will see the bright side on that....

(Playing devils advocate here.......)


Jake,

It's not that bad. Our disappointment is that two years have been wasted and there is an increased potential that someone will get hurt before this is improved.

I mean really, adopting a single point release rule for a component that is not part of the harness system, ignoring the entire concept of getting out of the car, failing to leave the egress issue to santioning bodies who are moving toward a timed egress (Forget the methods. Like explosive bolts? Fine.) and then accepting only the good test results? Geez, why not insult someone's intelligence.


All,

BTW, options 1, 2 and 3 are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
Originally posted by lateapex911:
I think it would be a great idea. And each manufacturer should have a link on their website to it.

Getting manufacturers to "subscribe" will be tricky, I imagine. I can think of only one off the top of my head that would be willing to "show all"..........


A minimum of three come to mind.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
From my manufacturing side (and I know Gregg has thought about this), I be very, very hesitant to post ALL my data to the web. Lawyers and laypersons are very dangerous people, and mis-interpretation of the data would run rampant. I would not want to be sitting in the chair in front of a jury answering the questions that would come as a result of this. I would think that it would actually increase the costs due to higher liability.

Examples from the medical industry come to mind where newspeople get a hold of preliminary, incomplete datasets and start making conclusions based on them. Soon, the product is being touted as a heart attack inducing product before the full dataset is acquired.

Oh, and btw, there are Black Helicopters around my office. I don't like being deposed...

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
 
Originally posted by planet6racing:
I don't like being deposed...

Aw c'mon, Bill. Few things in life are more fun that throwing at a lawyer, while on the witness stand, a highly technical concept that his expert forgot to bring up in pre-trial depos. He looks like a deer in the headlights.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Lawyers and laypersons are very dangerous people, and mis-interpretation of the data would run rampant</font>

Well put, sir. You can also add competitors to that list.

This seems to be true of the videos especially. HANS will release their video of the belts slipping off their product about the time hell freezes over.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
Originally posted by Despr8dave:
I kinda have to agree with George. My first impression about Isaac's situation with the SFI was you didn't want to "play their game", I personnally would not want to either, but it seems you must if you want to succeed further. I also feel they (SFI) are similiar to the FDA in the way they operate with new products, of which I've been involved with in the past. I prefer to not thinking of it as kissing ass, but a way, however unfortunate, to do business. I like your product, I think it is the best thing going, but to get it where it needs to be, ya gotta play the game. IMHO.

David

David (& George),

Agreed. SFI certification is the best way to go along to get along. I may have left the wrong impression. If SFI and the sanctioning bodies stick to the current 38.1 spec, we will build a product for it (option #2), even if it can be clearly demonstrated to be inferior to our present designs—-though not by much. The first light bulb did not meet Spec XX.X of the Kerosene Lamp Foundation, but people eventually came around.

The problem is that this spec makes the SFI a very dangerous place to be, because the lawyers (not the ones Jake is referring to) may well determine the outcome.

Jake speaks of lawyers for the organizations that are attempting to minimize their risk exposure. Ironically, what they have done is traded a nonexistent perceived risk for a much larger, real one. This position might be justifiable if there were a fundamental downside to our product, but there isn’t; it’s not as though the Isaac system has a low level of performance. ( http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/chart.html ).

Here’s the scenario that is just a matter of time: A driver with a HANS gets barbequed. (Anyone see the near-miss with Paul Newman on Saturday?) The lawyer(s) poking around find the sanctioning body/SFI knowingly and willingly excluded the only product that could have avoided the fatality (Isaac) while accepting a product with a documented history of trapping drivers in burning cars (HANS). Everyone gets hammered. Not a party we want to be at, thank you.

I’ve never set foot in a law school and I can figure this one out.

What would you be doing now if you were a plaintiffs’ lawyer? You would be busy connecting dots and looking for deep pockets. Knowing that a safety image sells street cars, and tracing the financial support for the HANS device to GM and DaimlerChrysler/FIA et al, you have found your deep pockets. The icing on the cake is NASCAR, especially since it has rejected the SFI “certified” R3 device. The cherry on top will arrive if this can be pitched to a court as a class action, complete with RICO.

Well here’s a news flash folks: Some of this has already happened. Past tense.

Will we produce an SFI 38.1-compliant version of the Isaac system? Sure, if need be. Will the cost reflect the extra risk? Oh, yeah.

BTW, if you have already purchased an Isaac system, you’re covered. The belt connector components have been redesigned for a retrofit compliant with SFI 38.1, GCR Section 20.4 and any other boneheaded, Mickey-Mouse, light-weight, namby-pamby rule thought up by some intellectual giant who doesn’t understand the difference between getting out of the seat and getting out of the car. (Did I mention that diplomacy was not my strong suit?)

As an aside, I have a friend who is convinced that all lawyers should be arrested and sued before they are allowed to practice law. I believe we should extend that philosophy to those who write emergency egress rules for racers: Put them in a car equipped per their rules, set them on fire, and see if the rules work.

[sigh]

Sorry. Life’s too short for paperwork, IMHO.

[/sigh]

Hey, that was fun. IT rocks. You guys are great.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
Greg,
You reminded me of why I dropped out of pre-Law 30 years ago.......
Also of some of the law suits brought by racers wives and families. Everytime we get in a car we are at some risk re: Bill's Saturn steering wheel fiasco at Road Atlanta. Mark Donahue's family sued Goodyear, and many others. To hell with that. When I go, I'd rather be doing what I love than getting killed by a drunk driver. I'm responsible for all the safety equipment I can afford. Me, no one else. Take your law suits and .......well, you know what I mean.
Let's just race and have a ball.
David
 
Greg,
You reminded me of why I dropped out of pre-Law 30 years ago.......
Also of some of the law suits brought by racers wives and families. Everytime we get in a car we are at some risk re: Bill's Saturn steering wheel fiasco at Road Atlanta. Mark Donahue's family sued Goodyear, and many others. To hell with that. When I go, I'd rather be doing what I love than getting killed by a drunk driver. I'm responsible for all the safety equipment I can afford. Me, no one else. Take your law suits and .......well, you know what I mean.
Let's just race and have a ball.
David
 
Originally posted by gsbaker:
..................As an aside, I have a friend who is convinced that all lawyers should be arrested and sued before they are allowed to practice law. I believe we should extend that philosophy to those who write emergency egress rules for racers: Put them in a car equipped per their rules, set them on fire, and see if the rules work.

[sigh]

I love it!

Dave..the double post post was funny ...

see? I can do it too...



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
BTW, I feel the need to set the record straight here (sorry Gregg). The HANS has optional quick release tethers that achieve the very same result of car exit that the Isaac does. Works very easily too (I tried them at Hubbard-Downing when I was there).

Also, the R3 has the same potential for having exit issues from a car due to the very same sort of piece that sticks up in the back like the HANS. Unlike the HANS (and Isaac) I don't believe (but could be wrong) it has a QR mechanism available to separate the driver from the H&N device.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by Geo:
BTW, I feel the need to set the record straight here (sorry Gregg). The HANS has optional quick release tethers that achieve the very same result of car exit that the Isaac does.

So much for single-point release; no more compliance with SFI 38.1.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Also, the R3 has the same potential for having exit issues from a car due to the very same sort of piece that sticks up in the back like the HANS.  Unlike the HANS (and Isaac) I don't believe (but could be wrong) it has a QR mechanism available to separate the driver from the H&N device.</font>

Agreed.

It's less of an issue with most road racers, but the NASCAR setup with the large head surrounds on the seat means the racer can't get out easily. In July of 2003 Bobby Lebonte had to completely remove his HANS before he could exit his burning car. That's a minimum of three release points, assuming the HANS will just fall away.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
Hey, I agree with where you're going with the lawyer-speak and all, but Gregg - the quick-releases on the HANS amount to simply another option for egress. This I would put in the same category (though to a greater extent) as removing your helmet before exiting the car - simply makes it easier, in most cases. As noted, there may be some cars where the driver is impaired or unable to exit while weearing a HANS.

That said, I still prefer the egress options of the ISAAC, with or without the 38.1 mod.

Kind of ironic isn't it, though, how we're getting to a point where we've got so much safety gear layering up that it'll almost be impossible to exit?

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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITB/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
 
I hear ya, Vaughan. I was just tweaking George a bit.
smile.gif


All this underlines the absurdity of mandating what a driver what he must do to get out of the car quickly. Why not just mandate that he must get out of the car quickly?

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
 
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