New IT class revealed at National Convention

[Simon T.]

Here is a link to a very truthful article : http://www.thecalifornian.com/article/20120310/LIFESTYLE/203100307
Please read with an open mind

I don't see your point in posting this as I know what Chump Car is having been to a race and like I said planning to race a few, I don't personally like all the humor stuff involved because I would prefer serious racing, not saying I don't like to have fun, but it just takes away something from me if I was chasing a Cressida wagon with a life size naked Ken doll bolted to the roof.

I don't see where the argument is going though. If you want to go run Chump Car instead of SCCA go for it, I think both could create a cool endurance series that has big fields and good races, to properly run Chump Car though you're not really spending much less than you would to run IT. You could probably win for less but the rest is the same.

 

[Flyinglizard]

Back on topic.

For this to be a success. It has to copy success.
1) The time on track vs time on trailer.
2) The ease of access.
3)I never said to issue novice permits to virgins. I said consider to issue a NP to two or more race Chumps.
4) Lack of down time.

Matt, No where did I say that if you had all of your sessions done in one day, that you had to leave!! Stay till monday if you want. Many younger drivers a have other people in their lives. It might be selfish to take the entire weekend away from family. Having a one day option, makes it an option.

SCCA is made up of retired engineers that their wives are happy if they get out of the house for a couple of days.
Younger people with money live in a different world, (so I am told.)
Races. Chumpcar races all races of 6 hr or more. Many well into darkeness. " Cant get workers and tracks dont allow it" is nonsense and not the truth. It just cost more money. Dont kid yourself, money gets it done.
Sebring 14hr, had the same worker set that SCCA does.

There are some Chumpcar drivers that would run the 30 min SCCA style of races . Cuz racing is racing. The downside is that the Chumpcar rules limit fuel tanks and driver stints , that results in a sort of a balance over the period of 12hrs. Not 30min.( (my Son would love to run his own race, in the Chumper. he is always about3- 4 sec per lap faster thananyone else)

How about this; Call the classes CCL and CCU, for over and under 7 in wheel width. ( That has been a huge speed differential maker for the class so far,lack of wheel size rule)

Run the races at the end of the day for at least 2 hrs.
Allow all class cars over the SM lap times, to compete.(have one qualifying session of 20 min or more, on the same day.)
Do this both days and charge according to track time. Drivers could race just one day.

Issue NP for drivers with 2 or more races.
Issue NP for valid track time and put into effect the "mentor" program.
Credit one school for one race.

FWIW the wining cars cost more than the IT cars but hide the cost out of site.
Iwould be happy to get this going, in the SE.

The class is the perfect WC filler, no tech, just plenty of various cars . WC just needs money also.
MM

 

[JS154]

No, some people think that. However it is true there are some bone head moves at these races, the RA round was stopped like 4 or 5 times I think. Do you trust a driver that went to one night of a classroom session for an hour to be racing wheel to wheel with you or someone that at least went to a legit school? Don't get me wrong, it works, because you could spot the new drivers racing and they do well at avoiding other cars, but stuff happens and I just think some people would agree it's far more likely to happen with someone extremely new than someone who had more training experience. The Road Atlanta race didn't have any major wrecks from what I can remember, the biggest issues being broken cars, a couple fires, and slicking down the track.

I've been to event and plan on racing some of them with the new car, I'm just being realistic.

I believe the point is not to run endurance crapcan events, nor is it to mix the crapcan class in with ITwhatever, it;s to give them a race group and try to grow participation and membership in the SCCA. It's not about the cars, it's all about the people.

 

[jjjanos]

Do you trust a driver that went to one night of a classroom session for an hour to be racing wheel to wheel with you or someone that at least went to a legit school?

If I don't know them from racing with them, I don't trust either of them. I've been around SCCA since 1973 and neither a legit school or 25 years of racing rids a driver of the stupid or the red mist.

 

[rydermike]

If I don't know them from racing with them, I don't trust either of them. I've been around SCCA since 1973 and neither a legit school or 25 years of racing rids a driver of the stupid or the red mist.

Well said ! Schooling whether it be racing or college isn't always a good measurment of true capabilities.

 

[Knestis]

I believe the point is not to run endurance crapcan events, nor is it to mix the crapcan class in with ITwhatever, it;s to give them a race group and try to grow participation and membership in the SCCA. It's not about the cars, it's all about the people.

And there's the potential rub.

If it is the enduro format that makes crapcan racing attractive and "affordable," then attempting to transplant *just* the car rules to SCCA sprint racing is going to be unsuccessful.

Similarly, if it's the byzantine "cost control" rules that make the cars "affordable," they won't continue to be so if that management structure doesn't come with the cars.

If the COMBINATION of all of the various factors is required for crapcan success, then the model has to be adopted as whole cloth. AND if part of that is the established brand and management - which cannot be appropriated - then the real solution would have to be to do combined events. We aren't very good at playing nice sometimes.

The problem is that we don't tend to think through the "why" of something before we latch onto it.

K

 

[RacerBill]

from Simon T.
If you really just recommended a Chump type class runs during a World Challenge weekend, that will NEVER happen. SCCA Pro would run away laughing before you could even finish a proposal.

For the second year, we are running an IT-Spec Miata Challange race at Mid-Ohio combined with the Grand-Am Weekend! There is oppotunity out there to run on Pro weekends.

 

[Flyinglizard]

Just by allowing the class may bring a few of the G1 cars. The early , real 500$ cars that have been evolved out of contention.
There are about 1200 crap cans racing.
The problem will be finding a group that puts up with them.
I have rented my CC for the SCCA schools in the past and had no issues. The drivers are just trying to get through the weekend.

I ran a PDX with it and they went crazy. (Sebring short, the cars' design track).
SCCA wont gather enough cars, trying for their own group, esp with a short race format. The few that do show up, may not come back due to the attitude of the SCCA crowd.
The older, ex SCCA guys may never come back due to the same reception, of superiority etc. That is why they are at Chumpcar. The people are nice.

I see very little market for a sprint race format.
I see a small market for allowing CC to be used at the driver schools.

I see no market if the Chumpcar races are not used as a school credit.
It is all about the money. track time VS $. Chumpcar is 1000$ entry and 14hr track time, min.
SCCA is maybe 300$ entry, 2hrs max track time, plus the 2 days of "life time."

While my Crap can drivers are some of the best funded drivers that I have worked with over the years, they still just want to drive a lot.
FWIW I still have one seat open for the 14HRS @ Daytona, 850$(3 cars @ 4 drivers per)
80 cars will start the race, same @ SEbring, 14hrs.
The market is so strong that I am taking apart IT cars for these races.
How can SCCA compete?

 

[jjjanos]

Let us do the math....

SCCA:
$300 entry fee for 1 hour track time at max. = $5/minute
plus the wear and tear on the vehicle
plus the needless replacement of perfectly good safety equipment
plus the cost of getting there
plus membership
plus license fee
plus the cost of the physical on a regular basis
plus the "you owe me" cost of leaving the spouse and little ones at home alone
or the almost equally expensive "you owe me" cost of taking same spouse to the track
plus the car itself
plus the cost of any extraordinary damage to the car

Allsports Grand Prix
$24.50 for 8 minutes or $3.06/minute
<carriage return>

Chumpcar
Someone else do the per minute cost, but I bet it's a hell of alot less than SCCA.

The only thing I can't figure out is how one finds a vehicle that legally meets all of their $500 value requirements.

 

[jhooten]

Oregon region:
I hope your plan works and you attract many new members by trying it.

Naysayers:
Besides sitting on your hands and spouting negativity what are you doing to grow the membership and attract new racers or workers?

 

[JIgou]

At my Region's annual driver's meeting, I asked if SCCA's new "mentoring" licensing program could utilize observed participation in a Chump race as a basis for issuing a novice permit. Seat time is typically the second reason they use for not crossing over to SCCA.

Chris, I have tentative approval for this in the format we discussed. So there's one hurdle removed.

I don't think Oregon, or any other region, will have much luck attracting the existing crapcan racecars simply by offering a class for them. The licensing, tech, and shared car ownership will be stumbling blocks to any driver who wants to give SCCA a try with his/her team's car. With that said, these “chumps” are out there turning wrenches, building caged race cars, and learning racecraft. SCCA needs to find a way to make them feel welcome because many have the perception that they would not be.

Along with Chris, we had two other entries in our regional-only "ChumpCar-esque" classes last year. Not a huge number, but in this area every single entry makes a difference.

The "E11" rules we brought the chumpcars in under are in this document:

http://http://www.dlbracing.com/download.filx?FileID=1337

We'll be doing it again for 2012.

Jarrod

 

[JLawton]

And there's the potential rub.

If it is the enduro format that makes crapcan racing attractive and "affordable," then attempting to transplant *just* the car rules to SCCA sprint racing is going to be unsuccessful.

Similarly, if it's the byzantine "cost control" rules that make the cars "affordable," they won't continue to be so if that management structure doesn't come with the cars.

If the COMBINATION of all of the various factors is required for crapcan success, then the model has to be adopted as whole cloth. AND if part of that is the established brand and management - which cannot be appropriated - then the real solution would have to be to do combined events. We aren't very good at playing nice sometimes.

The problem is that we don't tend to think through the "why" of something before we latch onto it.

K

I don't think the "class" will be successful but what it will do is allow guys who got a taste of wheel to wheel an opportunity to expand on it without having to go out and buy another car. That cost (or perception of cost) is what keeps a lot of people away from racing. So we have now introduced a whole new population of potential racers to SCCA. That's why I like the concept.

 

[forestdweller37]

chris, i have tentative approval for this in the format we discussed. So there's one hurdle removed. :d

jarrod

 

[downingracing]

...The few that do show up, may not come back due to the attitude of the SCCA crowd. The older, ex SCCA guys may never come back due to the same reception, of superiority etc. That is why they are at Chumpcar. The people are nice....

Wow... The attitude of the SCCA crowd?? I don't know where you are from or where you race, but I can guarantee it isn't anywhere around Ohio, Indiana, Michigan! The folks running SCCA around here are the nicest people you can hope to meet racing! There are definitely d-bags at every event (there is at least one in every group!), but they are the exception.


I'm glad their format works for them. And I wish them all the success they can have! I don't see the regions around here having the time in the schedule for an enduro-type event to attract those drivers. Counting their seat time towards a license - no problem. Changing the format of weekends that attract tons of drivers and are successful - I don't see it happening.

On the topic of licensing - I do think it is funny that there is such a to-do about how 'hard' it is to get an SCCA license. Back when I did it, I did 2 different weekends to get my regional license. Now, you can just do one weekend and you're good to go! I'm not sure how much easier it needs to be. 1 weekend and you have a competition license. You can go from 'I'd like to do that' on Friday to 'I'm now doing it!' on Sunday! All just my .02¢

 

[Simon T.]

from Simon T.
If you really just recommended a Chump type class runs during a World Challenge weekend, that will NEVER happen. SCCA Pro would run away laughing before you could even finish a proposal.

For the second year, we are running an IT-Spec Miata Challange race at Mid-Ohio combined with the Grand-Am Weekend! There is oppotunity out there to run on Pro weekends.

HUGE difference though in running IT cars and Chump Cars, SCCA Pro Racing from what I've heard is very strict on professional appearance, I don't know if they would even let IT cars run at a WC weekend like GA does. It would be awesome, but I'm just thinking realistically.

The older, ex SCCA guys may never come back due to the same reception, of superiority etc. That is why they are at Chumpcar. The people are nice.

People aren't nice in the SCCA? Every club/race group has "those guys." I've been in SCCA paddocks for years even not racing and have met a lot of nice people, more than anywhere else. When I ran last year's ARRC I was even more impressed with all of the help that was given, pointers, and just friendly attitudes. I love the strong competition you see in the paddock and on track but it seems like for the most part at the end of the day everyone can have a drink and be friendly.

If SCCA wants to compete with these crap can endurance series they should just make a large endurance series, ITJ being a class for these cars, the rest are typical ECR classes. Long races, 4 hours minimum, even have a weekend dedicated to just the series. You can run your $500 car or you can run a $20,000 IT car and win. I know Chump has the exceptions class or whatever but you aren't really competing.

 

[SMac92]

This might sound odd, but what if regions that need the entry numbers made a class/run group of non-competition cars and non-licensed drivers. It can be stock cars driven to the track, semi-prepared race cars, ChumpCars/LeMons, whatever. The only requirement was to have the car looked over by a mechanic, have a number on the side, and then have a SA2005 helmet (those could be available for rent). No other safety equipment and drivers can add upgrades to their car as wanted.

There could be 3 races or so per season that include this run group for one day so that it will gain more entries than if it was included in every race. We already sign our lives away every time we race, if these competitors do the same, then there doesn't seem to be a lot of conflict. It will offer drivers a cheap way to dive into wheel to wheel competition with nothing holding them back if they don't like it. This is basically a PDX without the instructor and participants can pass anywhere. I think the ChumpCar class is good for any region that needs the entries, but it might be a bit of a risk for the regions that don't.

Steven

 

[Simon T.]

This might sound odd, but what if regions that need the entry numbers made a class/run group of non-competition cars and non-licensed drivers. It can be stock cars driven to the track, semi-prepared race cars, ChumpCars/LeMons, whatever. The only requirement was to have the car looked over by a mechanic, have a number on the side, and then have a SA2005 helmet (those could be available for rent). No other safety equipment and drivers can add upgrades to their car as wanted.

There could be 3 races or so per season that include this run group for one day so that it will gain more entries than if it was included in every race. We already sign our lives away every time we race, if these competitors do the same, then there doesn't seem to be a lot of conflict. It will offer drivers a cheap way to dive into wheel to wheel competition with nothing holding them back if they don't like it. This is basically a PDX without the instructor and participants can pass anywhere. I think the ChumpCar class is good for any region that needs the entries, but it might be a bit of a risk for the regions that don't.

Steven

That sounds like a death trap to me. lol I'm all for open passing track days but when you add competition to it the chances of contact and wrecks greatly add up. I don't think the club's insurance would like it too much either.

 

[Matt93SE]

wheel to wheel without a cage and full safety equipment just won't happen.. that scares me just thinking about it.

I've raced LeMons for several years and many current and ex-SCCA racers are playing there. Lots of the front-running Club Racers also build, race, and maintain theirs and others' Chump/LeMons cars. Our KeMons team plans to do start doing some Chump races this year as well, and will probably move away from LeMons due to the stupid penalties and down time of simply going 2 wheels off.
....A note on driver skill here... At Lemons, if you spin the car, hit someone (minor contact), or put 4 wheels off, they park your car for half an hour. If you do it again, they park you for an hour. Do it a third time, and your day is done. If you HIT someone, you get more severe penalties. bad driving is very harshly penalized. I haven't run ChumpCar yet, but I understand the rules are closer to club racing. i.e. 4wheels off and continue is no big deal, but punting someone is dealt with quickly and severely.

the cage in our LeMons Miata is an SCCA-legal cage-- had it done by the same shop that did the cage in my STU car. LeMons cage rules are pretty much the same as IT cage rules, except they still allow ERW tubing. I *think* that rule has been changed, with previously registered cars grandfathered in. Just like older IT cars.

the required driver safety gear is the same as SCCA. Must be SA2005 or better helmet, full face, SFI 3.5A/5 or better suit, some sort of neck protection- at minimum you need a collar, but many/most run a HANS or similar. If you have an open top car, you must wear arm restraints.

You gotta have a fire extinguisher. handheld is OK, but many teams are running a full-blown fire bottle and fuel cell.


the prep level on the faster-running LeMons cars are similar to an IT-type build. big radiator, blueprinted engine (some with intake, headers, and cams), coilovers, better brakes than most IT cars since brakes are considered a safety feature and don't fall under the $500 rule. I see Wilwoods and bigger OEM brake setups on many cars.

As for the safety differences between the cars, as long as the car meets SCCA's safety requirements, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be allowed to run. no windshield? Treat it like an open top Prod or GT car, and require the driver to wear full face helmet and arm restraints.


I see this as a good entry level class to get some of the serious chump guys entered into

Licensing? If the car is safety-legal, then the drivers can go to an SCCA school and get a novice permit. Houston Region's Super School is a 2.5day event (fri evening classroom + sat & sun on track) and was about $600 IIRC. I walked away with 8 hrs of wheel to wheel track time and a novice permit. done. That's the same cost of running a Chump race for most of these people with just as much track time, so they won't complain.

Hell, I almost want to go back to another school just for some additional instruction and cheap track time. ..back to the point..

I don't see any reason to call this a bad idea. done right, it will bring new people (of all ages) to SCCA, and expose some of the old stuffy club racers to people who like racing because it's FUN.

 

[forestdweller37]

If SCCA wants to compete with these crap can endurance series they should just make a large endurance series, ITJ being a class for these cars, the rest are typical ECR classes. Long races, 4 hours minimum, even have a weekend dedicated to just the series. You can run your $500 car or you can run a $20,000 IT car and win. I know Chump has the exceptions class or whatever but you aren't really competing.

We have the IT Tour, BFG Super Tour, Regional, National, Rational, Majors, and Showcase weekends. (I probably missed a few...) Why not an SCCA Endurance Challenge?

But seriously, everyone on my Chump team really enjoys endurance racing on real street tires (huge cost savings when you're on track for hours). The car being a "crapcan" does not really appeal to us. But what else is there? NASA doesn't run any endurance races of real length in the Midwest. If the opportunity to race a "nice" car around the SS*/SM/IT* prep level on street tires existed, I think we'd vote to jump ship. Of course this is probably how the "I" classes get created LOL.

And what of the people racing formula and sports racing cars? They would not mix well with the tin tops. Likewise there are some pretty big speed differentials amongst those tin tops that would need to be considered. It would not do to exclude them. Although there could be a slew of empty seats available for them with the teams that can race those weekends.

 

[Flyinglizard]

The SCCA has been only fair to our family over the last 20 yrs. I expect the volunteers to do their jobs, and I am sure that I have made a lot of my luck.
97% of SCCA are great people and without the workers and all of the volunteers we could not do this. If you want details please email me.

Chumpcar is almost exactly the same, racing wise as SCCA . We have offs and no big deal. Just dont hit any chicane barriers or cut the course. All fair and logical.

I would say to post the Crap Can Class in "sportscar" with the normal format and see how many hits you get. Most will say, "not enough track time and the race is to short for our team".
See what it takes for the regions to extend saturday track time until 9:00. Buy pizza and beer, rent your own Bambulance if you have to.
The night races will draw cars and new racers.
Night races will draw cars.

I will bring 3 cars/ 9 drivers, for any Sebring, 6hr night race.


I would vouch for all of my drivers for NP or regional license . Non are current SCCA holders. 2 have lapsed, 2 are PDX guys with lots of laps and about 5 CHump races.

If you were thoughtful, SCCA could issue novice permits(to Chump racers with 2 or more races), run this group all by itself @ 4:00 or 5:00 , calling it a drivers school. Run a 4 hr race.
Post race, the successful drivers could all get the second school credit . Good to go and race SCCA. There, you have a way.