New IT class revealed at National Convention

run this group all by itself @ 4:00 or 5:00 , calling it a drivers school. Run a 4 hr race.
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Many tracks that I'm aware of this would not be possible. Take a look at the majority of tracks where Chump and LeMons run. Summit Point? Nope. The secondary circuit. Nelson...need I say more (although appreciate the grassroots effort they have there).
 
gran racing said:
Many tracks that I'm aware of this would not be possible. Take a look at the majority of tracks where Chump and LeMons run. Summit Point? Nope. The secondary circuit. Nelson...need I say more (although appreciate the grassroots effort they have there).
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Really? You consider tracks like Laguna Seca 2nd tier? Here's a list of Chump tracks , oddly all same as SCCA runs plus maybe a few!
AUTO CLUB SPEEDWAY
BEAVERUN MOTORSPORTS PARK
BRAINERD INT'L RACEWAY
BUTTONWILLOW RACEWAY
CALABOGIE MOTORSPORTS PARK
CHARLOTTE MOTOR SPEEDWAY
DAYTONA INT'L SPEEDWAY
EAGLES CANYON RACEWAY
EDMONTON (CFB)
GATEWAY INT'L RACEWAY
GIMLI MOTORSPORTS PARK
GRAND BEND RACEWAY
HARRIS HILL RACEWAY
HEARTLAND PARK RACEWAY
HIGH PLAINS RACEWAY
INFINEON RACEWAY
IOWA SPEEDWAY
LA JUNTA RACEWAY
MEMPHIS MOTORSPORTS PARK
MICHIGAN INT'L SPEEDWAY
NELSON LEDGES ROAD COURSE
NEW JERSEY MOTORSPORTS PARK
NOLA MOTORSPORTS PARK
PALM BEACH INT'L RACEWAY
PIKES PEAK INT'L RACEWAY
PORTLAND INT'L RACEWAY
ROAD AMERICA
ROAD ATLANTA
SEBRING INT'L RACEWAY
SHANNONVILLE RACEWAY
SPOKANE COUNTY RACEWAY
STREETS OF ENSENADA
STREETS OF MEXICALI
STREETS OF WILLOW
TEXAS WORLD SPEEDWAY
THE RIDGE MOTORSPORTS PARK
VIRGINIA INT'L RACEWAY
And to make it more intersting as well as challenging at Iowa Speedway last years "Chumpionship" ran both the roval as well as oval, are YOU ready to do 31 second just shy of 100 mph avg speed laps?
 
I haven't read all the responses. Don't really need to as it's nothing that I haven't read before when other forums talk SCCA vs Crapcan.

The drivers are the same in both. Some great. Some not. Some predictable. Some not. The initial cost of the car is less, but other than that, costs are the same EXCEPT the costs typically get split among 4-6 guys. That is a HUGE factor.

IMO, the ONLY reason someone will run their crap can with the SCCA class is to get some seat time at a track or to shake the car down for the next Crapcan race.

I've run with my CHUMP team for the past 3 years. I can honestly say its the best and most exciting racing I've ever had. I've let my SCCA licence expire. No desire to renew it as I don't really see coming back to sprint racing any time soon. I will be returning to SCCA PDX's though... to shake down the chumpcar and get our drivers some more seat time.
 
Somebody 'splain to me what's the difference between chumpcar races and SCCA enduros. SCCA does some 12 hour races as well. What makes chumpcar better, or at least more subscribed? If the attraction of chumpcar is that you can spread the cost amongst multiple people and get a decent amount of seat time then it would seem SCCA enduros offer the same thing. Should SCCA look more at putting on enduro format races instead of sprint races?

David
 
The perception -- well, *my* perception -- of the attraction of ChumpCar (and LeMons) is that it's cheaper, primarily in the realm of building a car. Which is true, right up to the point that someone wants to win. At that point, it's no more a $500 car than the GRM 2012 Challenge cars cost $2012 (unless your name is Mike Brewer and you have a guy named Edd China working for you...)

In that mindset, the difference between ChumpCar and Improved Touring is in name only.... - GA
 
DavidM said:
Somebody 'splain to me what's the difference between chumpcar races and SCCA enduros. SCCA does some 12 hour races as well. What makes chumpcar better, or at least more subscribed? If the attraction of chumpcar is that you can spread the cost amongst multiple people and get a decent amount of seat time then it would seem SCCA enduros offer the same thing. Should SCCA look more at putting on enduro format races instead of sprint races?

David
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My opinion on why the crapcan races receive more entries is simply that entry into a ChumpCar event over an SCCA sanctioned event is perceived to be easier by most normal (read: those not already holding SCCA racing licenses/memberships) people. The bar is set lower w/ fewer hoops (read: less time commitment) to jump through and perceived lower costs (having done both I can attest that they are actually very close) split between friends that you're also building a car with. It's all perception.

Having run a few dozen SCCA sprint races and a handful of LeMons endurance races, I can attest to the fact that there is a big difference in the racing and especially the quality of racers on the track - but I'd still pick crapcan enduro races over SCCA enduros purely because of car count. 100 cars on the track, even if half don't finish and more than half are driven by clueless maniacs, is still more fun than racing against 14 well-prepped cars and teams.

/my $.02
 
DavidM said:
Somebody 'splain to me what's the difference between chumpcar races and SCCA enduros. SCCA does some 12 hour races as well. What makes chumpcar better, or at least more subscribed? If the attraction of chumpcar is that you can spread the cost amongst multiple people and get a decent amount of seat time then it would seem SCCA enduros offer the same thing. Should SCCA look more at putting on enduro format races instead of sprint races?

David
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Good question...

** TIRES - If we ran on crap tries that lasted all day, we'd save a lot of dough. For that to make sense, everyone has to be in the same boat and they would have to be the same hard junk that crapcan cars currently use.

** ENTHUSIASM - The crap cars are still the realm of the band of brothers who hang out and work on the car. That keeps down service costs, translating into lower per-hour $$.

** IGNORANCE - I'd argue that a lot of the Chump/Lemons car owners are still deluded by their own perceptions that their cars are really cheap. They haven't gotten in the habit of adding up their actual costs because they are so used to adding up their FICTIONAL costs to make their $500 arguments.

Because of all of the above, per-hour seat prices (not costs) are still artificially low.

K

EDIT - I'm going to reiterate my prediction of convergence; that eventually crap car enduros will be indistinguishable from "real" enduros, irrespective of who is left standing to sanction the races.
 
DavidM said:
Somebody 'splain to me what's the difference between chumpcar races and SCCA enduros. SCCA does some 12 hour races as well. What makes chumpcar better, or at least more subscribed? If the attraction of chumpcar is that you can spread the cost amongst multiple people and get a decent amount of seat time then it would seem SCCA enduros offer the same thing. Should SCCA look more at putting on enduro format races instead of sprint races?

David
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Chumpcar puts on enough enduros for teams with shared car ownership to form and make a season of it. SCCA's enduros are more of an exception than the norm.

If SCCA had a set of enduro classes similar the five used for "The Devil in the Dark" and promoted a nation-wide endurance series, would it be well subscribed? Would it draw in new member-drivers?
 
Not everyone likes the scca ruleset. Its very restrictive and does not leave much wiggle room. I bet that alot of what poeple that are attracted to chumpcar and lemons like is the freedom to do as they like building the cars. Some like to feel they can build an advantage into there car by superior car choice and building. Thats where chumpcar and lemons is attractive to many. Its why its not attractive to me. I would like to think my driving is the key to winning. But different strokes for different folks. The scca needs to realize we cannot be everything to everyone. The biggest problem scca has is to many events. Cut the supply of events down and the # of racers per event will go up. And the interest in scca may go up as well.
Chris Howard
 
Ease of entry, lack of hassle, are the good points of Chumps. The subjective AIV(average internet value) and such will be the downfall.
The tire rule is nice. tires last 3 races on most cars. Not 1 per 2 hr.

The SCCA is percieved to be a major hassle getting a license and getting thru tech.
Have you guys looked at the boards from an outsider point of view?? Washer bottles, shifter bushings. etc.
Ease of entry, makes it happen.
Advertising. SCCA has next to none.
MM
 
Quick Chump Story :

- I had a student at a DE , good student , eager to learn , good skills , good mechanical skills , plenty of disposable income.

- Student did a few DE events and asked me about racing , I encouraged him to go get an SM and run it as an ITA car to get his feet wet

- Student was frustrated by the SCCA process , medicals , forms , licensing , schools , tech , ect. so he didn't do anything

- Student found ChumpCar , bought a car , rebuilt it ( several times ) ... He's raced the snot out of it , he's had a blast , and has spent more than enough to develop and run a 1st class IT car

- Student finds this thread , and is very confused as to why some of us are snobs about the SCCA process. He wants to come race with us , but between the barriers to entry and some of our attitudes , it's unlikely

Let's face it guys , our barriers to entry are a problem.

I can tell the prospective SCCA racer to ignore the perceived snobs , but I can't do anything about the barriers to entry outside of guiding the prospective racer thru the process.

Another guy on the same Chump team , who instructs with several groups picked up a nice fully built E36 and is going to go race. I can't even get him to give SCCA a sniff , he's NASA all the way ( loves the NASA 4 sessions per day / hates the SCCA 2 sessions per day )
 
TStiles said:
...frustrated by the SCCA process , medicals , forms , licensing , schools , tech , ect. so he didn't do anything
...
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I am wondering if there is there a series that allows people with:

  • intermittent seizures that cause a loss of motor skills (medical, forms)?
  • no clue about the way to negotiate a green flag start, signal that you about to pit-in, or what to do when confronted with a waving yellow (schools)?
  • serious lack of judgement on the track and around traffic (licensing, schools)?
  • dangerously unsafe cars that threaten competitors as well as the driver (tech)?
and I am also wondering.... if there is, do you want to subject yourself to the risk of being near such a person in a race? ... I don't.

.
 
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lawtonglenn said:
I am wondering if there is there a series that allows people with:

  • intermittent seizures that cause a loss of motor skills (medical, forms)?
  • no clue about the way to negotiate a green flag start, signal that you about to pit-in, or what to do when confronted with a waving yellow (schools)?
  • serious lack of judgement on the track and around traffic (licensing, schools)?
  • dangerously unsafe cars that threaten competitors as well as the driver (tech)?
and I am also wondering.... if there is, do you want to subject yourself to the risk of being near such a person in a race? ... I don't.

.
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Intermitten sizures? Then they shouldn't even possess a street license which is reqired everywhere

They do have a friday night "ground school" to instruct you on the flagging and basic procedures

Lack of judgement isn't something seen much , MUCH LESS CONTACT than the avg SCCA race , if anything the newbies are extremely carfeul and watching their mirrors and point you by way before you get to them

Dangerous cars? There is real tech and safety is a big deal

I can say this about the Chumpcar stuff , but I can;t about the lemons , no experiience with that group.
 
lawtonglenn said:
aha!... you ASSUME that I was speaking of ChumpCar, I was not

I was just reading ChumpCar's lengthy rule book (I like the humor in its style)
and ChumpCar DOES have forms, schools, licensing, and tech

http://www.chumpcar.com/dev/cms/assets/downloads/chumpcar-rules.pdf

I was commenting on the DE student's frustration at having to actually complete
forms, schools, licensing, and tech, and wondering if there is ANY
series that would not require these.

.
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It's not just one thing , it's the perception of SCCA process of a+b+c+d+e+f , ect. I think a lot of people see our requirements , get frustrated , then just hit the EZ button , and go Chump racing

I can easily count 10 guys who I've met thru DE's that have gone racing , not a one has ended up in SCCA

It's may not be an issue for your division , but we don't have a Driver's School in SW Division anymore ... Unless a new guy has somebody to guide him thru the process , the process is perceived as difficult and perception is reality.
 
rydermike;334543 Lack of judgement isn't something seen much said:
I've seen both sides of driver judgement in ChumpCar , the vast majority are aware and are pretty good about point bys ... One the other hand , I've encountered a few that want to block ..... How does that compare with SCCA ? About the same except when somebody does something stupid in Chump it's at a much lower speed
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lawtonglenn said:
I am wondering if there is there a series that allows people with:

  • intermittent seizures that cause a loss of motor skills (medical, forms)?
  • no clue about the way to negotiate a green flag start, signal that you about to pit-in, or what to do when confronted with a waving yellow (schools)?
  • serious lack of judgement on the track and around traffic (licensing, schools)?
  • dangerously unsafe cars that threaten competitors as well as the driver (tech)?
and I am also wondering.... if there is, do you want to subject yourself to the risk of being near such a person in a race? ... I don't.
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I've seen all 4 at the same SCCA NATIONAL.
 
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