NHMS Triple, Memorial Day Weekend 2011

For flag stations to be effective, they need to be in the target line of sight of the driver. It's sweet and all to tell drivers to always make a concerted effort to look away from the road to recognize flag condition, but in reality that just doesn't happen.

As the driver leaves T9 the car is pushed far driver's left and the flag station for T10 is not visible behind the wall. As track-out finishes the the driver's gaze and attention shifts to straight ahead and slightly driver's right, to the turn-in point of that next corner, and away from the flag station on driver's left. That corner station does not become visible from behind the tire wall until the driver is pretty much entering that next corner (T11?); by that time the corner station is now directly abeam the driver. As the driver negotiates that corner his gaze turns only about 30 degrees left for the entry to T12 and the corner station is well past abeam left and fading away. Thus, unless the driver intentionally looks left to the station while going through the process of entering the corner (something that is not instinctual) or has his attention taken there by contrasting movement (as Kirk describes) then it's easy to miss flag status. A far better location for that flag station would be at the end of the Aarmco on the short straight, where the driver can easily determine flag status.

The same exact visual/psychological problem exists at the T2 flag station: driver's attention is slightly right to not hit the concrete wall, flag station is abeam to driver's left (or did we change that? I remember there was talk of it).

I've trained myself to look left at these stations each time I'm there; they've saved me more than a few times. But in the heat of the battle it's quite easy to miss those. So I don't automatically blame anyone when they miss those flags; they're in terrible, ineffectual locations.

My rule-of-thumb is that if you can't see the flag station for a reasonable amount of time within the narrow field-of-vision of the front windshield of an in-car video, then the driver can easily miss it.

GA
 
Greg Amy said:
The same exact visual/psychological problem exists at the T2 flag station: driver's attention is slightly right to not hit the concrete wall, flag station is abeam to driver's left (or did we change that? I remember there was talk of it).


GA
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Yeah, they changed it last year?? Now it's in the middle of turn two on the right with a hole in the fence.

As Greg said, it's easy to arm chair quarterback this but the important aspect is to make it a learning experience.

I know the perfect spot for it would be drivers right, further up the track. Just as you are tracking out of 10 it would be right in your line of sight............ but then you have to put up protection for the workers (yes, I've been out in those weeds before)....... and then make it easily movable or get the NASCAR boy's panties in a bunch.

Tough situation. I'm glad no one was hurt. And it sucks that it took away from what looked like an awesome race. It did look fun!! Too bad ITR/ITS are dead........... ;)
 
Jeremy Billiel said:
You suck Lawton! I said ITS was dead and ITR was the place to be. That is evident by just how many people are jumping to ITR. :D

If you are going to quote me at least do it accurately! LOL :D
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Jeremy...don't be getting your "Lawtons" mixed up...I'm
done giving you sh1t for your foot in mouth, but if it is Jeff
you are lambasting, go for it! (Jeff and I are unrelated)

:happy204:
 
Well, I certainly wish that the weekend had ended differerntly. And, first of all........my apologies to Bob Blake, and to the rest of race group 6 on Saturday (for shortening your race). Under the heading of "NO excuses" - I take the blame for the incident. All me.

I can tell you this, I have no doubt that there was a yellow out (we have great volunteers who do a friggin great job! NO issue with whether the flag was out or not on my part), but I absolutely did not see it (more to follow on that). I was catching back up to Nat (white Volvo) and was hot on his bumper. When we came through T11, my eyes were on my turn in, Nat's bumper, and then looking up to my track out point. As we went into and just through T11, I saw Nat do a little "wiggle" as he was pulling hard left. I actually thought he had messed up and was getting loose - and my next thought was "what a great time to put my foot to the floor and get a run as we were coming up to T12 and the front straight". As I came through T11 I actually was allowing the car to track out just a bit farther than normal, giving it a bit more throttle than normal, thinking that Nat was having a handling issue. And Nat kept left........and then there was Bob. I don't think I actually got my foot to the brake before I hit him. What a mess.

Afterwards, I took the time to talk to a few racers (Matt Miskoe, Nat, Tim Duggan, and couple of others) to see if they saw the yellow - and to a man, they did not. So, I thought about it, and decided to find Bob Introne Sunday morning. If this happened to me - it could happen to someone else. Bob was great. He and I took a ride in his golf cart out to the flag station near T11 and reviewed what happened.

And at that point, I could actually see how this could happen again. The flag station is after T11, and considerably to the left of the driver's field of vision. I know that as I turn through T11, I am then looking up, almost towards NASCAR Turn 4......Not further left (inside) towards my "A" pillar (and that is where the flag station is). I am "busy" figuring out how much throttle and steering input to give as I slide out to the "bump" and the "hole" as you come to T12. My incident was adjacent to the flag station. My belief is that if the flag station is not within the driver's NATURALLY directed field of vision, particularly at a corner like this where there is a lot going on (hard braking, shifting, getting the corner just right to set up the oncoming straightaway), then we have a potential problem.

In my conversation with Bob, several options were discussed: moving the flag station across the track (too dangerous for the flaggers); move the flag station "up" the track towards T10 (difficult to do with the changes to the track itself and the barriers), having the flaggers at T10 put out a flag if there is a flag at T11 (perhaps confusing to racers?). The only one that made any sense was the last one - and Bob said that he would bring it up to the Flagging & Com Steward. I sure hope that he did.

In any event, again - my sincere apology to Bob Blake. I understand that it was a new car - that really sucks. I feel like crap about it. I am just truly glad that it was the nose of your car and not your driver's door. At least cars can be re-built.
 
Tim - did you get to walk up to the barrier that the flaggers stand behind? I have the sense that it is much taller than it used to be. I would think that the simplest change to make in the location of the flaggers is to give them a table to stand on so they are taller.

It is unsettleing to me that on Sunday I am quite sure there was no flag there for Steve U because after Saturday's trouble I was looking more closely.

BTW Tm, Ben has a good point, the ITA group has a decent car count, if you were to buy something new, stick w/ the ITS/R/B group. (sorry Jeff)

Matt
 
TimM ITB said:
In my conversation with Bob, several options were discussed: moving the flag station across the track (too dangerous for the flaggers); move the flag station "up" the track towards T10 (difficult to do with the changes to the track itself and the barriers), having the flaggers at T10 put out a flag if there is a flag at T11 (perhaps confusing to racers?). The only one that made any sense was the last one - and Bob said that he would bring it up to the Flagging & Com Steward. I sure hope that he did.
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Andy is absolutely correct regarding why a backup yellow at the previous station is almost never a good idea. In the occasional situation where an incident occurs directly in front of a flag station, then a backup yellow at the previous station is usually a good idea, but in general it is not, for the reasons Andy stated. Flags should have ONE meaning to the drivers, not multiple meanings. You don’t need to be going through a checklist of all the possible meanings of a flag while you are racing. A standing yellow flag means that there is an incident between that flag and the next flag station which is OFF THE RACING SURFACE. Period. How would a standing yellow at Station 10 have prepared you for a car stopped IN THE CENTER OF THE TRACK AFTER Station 11?

If you show a backup yellow at Station 10 in order to ensure that the drivers see it, do you do this for every waving yellow at Station 11? If not, then which ones? That is, does Station 10 then become a mirror for Station 11’s flags? What about surface flag conditions? What about blue flags? Should Station 11 become just an outpost (responding) station only? I am not endorsing any of these, just trying to show that the solution to the problem is not necessarily straightforward.

Another way to correct this would be to go to FIA flagging rules, which would mean no passing between the yellow flag and the waving green flag at the next clear station. This would permit a backup standing yellow at Station 10 followed by a waving yellow at Station 11 followed by a waving green at S/F. Of course the downside is the no-passing zone is lengthened, and at some stations/tracks this can be very significant. (BTW, FIA flagging rules would also take care of the situation where there are two independent incidents at the same sector, something which is impossible to cover with current SCCA flagging rules.)

There are lots of flag stations at lots of tracks which are less than ideal for drivers to see. The drivers don’t like them and the flaggers don’t like them either. Only rarely are they going to get changed. As flaggers, we do everything we can to make sure you see the flags, but moving to a different location or physically changing the flags are not things we can do.
 
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Leigh,

I think we all appreciate the input from a flagers view. It does help us understand better.

For a standing yellow at 10, it would get me to be prepared for an incident. I'd be paying a little more attention to my surroundings instead of the bumper in front of me or the one in back of me. I won't be as concerned about being passed and WOULD slow down. At that point I would probably be looking more up the track to find the incident which would get me looking more towards that next flag station. Where the flag station is now, you could technically race all the way to the apex of 11...............

Although I hate to admit this, if there was no flag at 10 you can bet that if I was in a heated battle and saw the incident, and the other guy slowed I would be going hard to get to 11 before him........ Just reality............. Like Tim said, as racers we are dealing with a ton of inputs. It takes a lot of concentration to push a car to 10/10ths without going to 11/10ths. And on top of that, be worried about the guy behind you tapping on your bumper!!


Tim, ITA is where all the cool guys are............... Just sayin'.............. :D (shhhhhhh, that's why Matt is selling his ITS car...........)
 
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JoshS said:
Just leave the RR wheel speed sensor connected. Perfectly legal to disconnect only three, and this won't confuse the ECU. Works fine on my '99, stock ECU w/custom flash (and the flash has nothing to do with the brakes.)
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The RR speed sensor only took me 2 months to figure out after I put my Z3 into ITA (formerly an SSB car with all it's sensors in place). I recall writing a letter to the CRB to get the wording changed in the ITCS from "remove all wheel speed sensors" to "remove at least three.." when disabling ABS.
 
I like Tim's approach to a potential problem and solution. It's clear he missed the yellow but the question now is simple, does the current configuration of that station provide drivers enough opportunity to see the warnings.
 
nlevine said:
The RR speed sensor only took me 2 months to figure out after I put my Z3 into ITA (formerly an SSB car with all it's sensors in place). I recall writing a letter to the CRB to get the wording changed in the ITCS from "remove all wheel speed sensors" to "remove at least three.." when disabling ABS.
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We totally missed this when preparing my car. I just pulling fuse 10 to disable the TC and ABS. I will now remove three wheel speed sensors leaving the right rear connected. I guess you can not use the factory ABS either.
 
coutzen said:
We totally missed this when preparing my car. I just pulling fuse 10 to disable the TC and ABS. I will now remove three wheel speed sensors leaving the right rear connected. I guess you can not use the factory ABS either.
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The ECU needs to see SOME wheel speed data or it gets confused and shuts things down. I removed the ABS pump as well (better pedal feel IMO), but left all fuses, etc. intact.

The clue I had about speed sensors was that it was one mod I made (required per the ITCS at the time) and the car kept going into severe rev-limiting mode. I knew the car ran fine as an SSB car with all the sensors installed, so I knew it was something I did. I confirmed the need for one sensor with Mike Morris at Schneller who does a lot of BMW engine swaps and knows his way around BMW ECU requirements..
 
Hello all,
I am new to this forum. Let me introduce myself if you do not know me. My name is Dan Hoffman. I’m Flagging & Communications Co-Chief for NER. The other Co-Chief is Mike Ostrander. I am happy that these postings were brought to my attention. It is very educational and could lead to changes in how F&C is conducted. I was in the control tower at the time of this incident. Unfortunately, due to low flagger turnout, I was trying to both log and man the radio at the same time so logging slipped when the do-do hit the fan. This is my perspective. I hope it doesn’t come off as being too defensive because I do want to raise the skills, safety, and enjoyment for all. I am in a position to make changes if the many parties involved can agree.
The flag station was staffed with experienced flaggers. The waving yellow flags came out instantly (and I’m confident that they stayed out but have no proof). Flaggers are taught to call for a back-up flag at the preceding station if the incident is directly in front of their station. This was down stream from the station. In Chris’s still image it appears to me that if the drivers were looking ahead and deliberately looking for the flag station that they would have had ample time to make adjustments. I do find it interesting that Joe in the red Porsche clearly adjusted his driving to the situation. When Joe is not driving he is flagging for us. He is obviously keenly aware of the flaggers. As I remember it, we went full-course yellow when we put an additional ambulance and tow truck on course and checkered the race early when it became evident the cleanup was going to take longer than the remaining race time.
I could, if the general population agrees, ask station 10 to automatically go standing yellow when station 11 is waving. I’m not sure if drivers want that. We are sometimes criticized for over-flagging. We use local-yellows to maintain as much racing time as possible. The “straight” between 10 and 11 is a prime passing zone. Do drivers really want to eliminate that area from racing for simple spin-and-continues in 11?
I can’t comment about 10 pulling in their white flag before the emergency vehicles stopping. I will reinforce the importance of white flagging at our next flag meeting.
Station 11 was moved back some when NHMS put in the helipad. I’m guessing about 20 additional feet from the pavement. We talked about other location options for station 11 Sunday night (yes, with Bob Introne) and we will consider all suggestions. We must, however, be behind a solid barrier. I am against putting flaggers on another platform. We just resolved that issue on station 3. When a car comes into station, and they do, the flaggers must either run for cover or duck behind the barrier. The platform at station 3 did not allow for either option. Happily, if you noticed, NHMS put additional “higher” barriers if front of station 3 to protect the flaggers. There have been several incidences where cars have crashed directly at our feet. If you think being turned around facing traffic in turn 11 is “f’ing scary", having cars come into station is the equivalent of standing on Bob’s hood at the time of incident!
We are all subject to be fallible. I look forward to constructive comments.
If you want to talk to me in person at the track, I’m the one with the florescent green hat.
Dan
P.S. I couldn’t help but notice the middle-of-the-dash location of Chris’ Emergency shut-off. Convenient for the driver, but how is a flagger supposed to find it when it’s needed most: when the cockpit is full of smoke?
 
So Dan, thanks for coming on here. I am positive given all the data that there were flags flying at T11.

The issue is that with the adjustment to the position of the station and the angle of driver 'attack' into T11, is this station suitable for the drivers to see a flag?

The Porsche sees it because he is leading a group and can see the car in his way. Tim in the VW was chasing the Volvo. He was focused. He was not only at a bad angle (that is compounded now with new location) but also visually challeged due to the other car being in front of him.

No doubt he didn't see the flag and was fixated on the car in front - all his bad...but we need stations we can 'notice', not have to 'look for' if I can offer up a grey but very distinct difference. Which is the new T11 flagger station?

It is also clear to me that NER is aware there may be an issue and is interested in investigating it more.
 
Andy,
I'm not sure what you mean by "Which is the new T11 flagger station?" We now flag from inside the helipad which is approximately where the old station was. A bit, however, further away from the track surface. I do agree the stations should be where they will be "noticed" rather than "looked for". Our placement choices are limited. Track management receives input from all the clubs that use the track. If we can come to a consensus as to where the station should be and if we can convince track management to put a Jersey Barrier there for us then we will do so.
 
Dan,
I'll second Andy on his appreciation for coming on and giving your perspective. As I said in a previous comment, it's much better to learn from a situation like this than to to sit and argue about whose fault it was. This is good stuff. And you can believe that I will be paying a "little" more attention to that flag station in the future!! :)
 
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