Remote Reservoirs?

[lateapex911]

http://72.167.111.130/forums/showthread.php?t=23691

Is the survey, IMO it didn't have enough choices (or wasn't clear enough.)

I think it should have been more like this:

1. Leave rule alone, no RR, Double Adjustable Only
2. Allow RR for cars which had it as OE (only if you use OE shocks), DA Only
3. Allow RR for cars which had it as OE (allow aftermarket), DA Only
4. Allow RR for all cars, DA Only
5. Allow RR for all cars, no restriction

The way that original survey was worded "Any damper may be fitted," was a sure way to get people to vote against that option. It _sounds_ too unrestrictive. It's important to restrict the number of adjustments, as that will control costs. I also believe there should be a rule that "No shock that was ever offered as a 3 or 4-way damper can be converted to 2-way."

That would make sense. Time for a new poll?

Uh, Jason? I know you said you read the threads, and I know there's a lot to read....but.. ( ) in the first post in that thread, I wrote :

Assume choices 1-5 are for the standard IT allowable 2 way passive design.

I understand your points, and I've opined to those who listen that the 2 way limit is the true limitation, and is what controls the scale of things, as well as the limited cage that IT cars run.

hey jason, turn on your PM, or shoot me an email...

 

[dj10]

Re-read all of my posts in this thread - the suspension that _you_ bought has nothing to do with what is legal. You could have spent 10x more, and it still would have been legal. 4-way should never be made legal.

How much better of a shock is a 2 way adjustable with a RR? From what I heard, there is not much difference between a 2 way non RR and a 2 way with RR. If there is not much difference, they why have them? Isn't there some people that want Shocks open? If shocks are open then 4 ways w/ RR will be legal. IT is IT, not production, national or pro, but lots of good racing around.

 

[Jason Saini]

How much better of a shock is a 2 way adjustable with a RR? From what I heard, there is not much difference between a 2 way non RR and a 2 way with RR. If there is not much difference, they why have them?

That argument works perfectly in the other direction as well, you know.

 

[betamotorsports]

This is a false statement, there is _no_ correlation between canister/no canister and high price/low price.

No Jason. its a true statement. I did not infer a correlation, I just said it was possible to pay more for a RR shock that performs better then a non-RR shock. I generally agree with your position, not everyone here on the IT forum is your enemy.

 

[Jason Saini]

No Jason. its a true statement. I did not infer a correlation, I just said it was possible to pay more for a RR shock that performs better then a non-RR shock. I generally agree with your position, not everyone here on the IT forum is your enemy.

In that case, the converse is also true; It's possible to pay more for an non-RR shock that performs better than an RR shock. Not saying you were an enemy, just clarifying.

 

[Fastfred92]

Damn, my old revalved non adjust Bilsteins just plan suck.... But I will say I don't think I have ever lost a race to a car just because it had cans or extra shock knobs that most IT guys have no clue how to adjust... Now that ECU Armageddon is upon us I say let shocks be free once again!

 

[planet6racing]

According to Merriam Webster, Vapid can mean "Lacking Strength," and that's how I intended it.

I did read all the other threads and discussions on this site, before I posted. I think it's an important enough topic to bring up again.

But, Jason, in true CC.com fashion, if you had read the other threads, why did you start a new one?

This is one of those topics that gets argued about ad nauseum on this site. It comes down to this: If you can afford to spend a metric ton on non-rr shocks, you will most likely spend a metric ton on rr shocks. Except in certain applications, I have not yet been convinced of the need for them in IT.

 

[spnkzss]

And why change a rule for the sake of changing it?

 

[924Guy]

Damn, my old revalved non adjust Bilsteins just plan suck.... But I will say I don't think I have ever lost a race to a car just because it had cans or extra shock knobs that most IT guys have no clue how to adjust... Now that ECU Armageddon is upon us I say let shocks be free once again!

My exact thought reading this... I guess I'm leaving about $4k on the table here even under the current rules!! LOL I probably haven't spent enough on my motor either...

Just cause you CAN buy RR shocks for $5k, does it mean you should?? I see a lot of posts here about how much you CAN spend on shocks; isn't it more relevant to state how much you NEED to spend on shocks? My budget's $1k for the car, and my shocks last years. Adjustable would be lovely... IF I didn't give up reliability/durability.

Perspective question: how many races do you have to win to recoup the cost of the $16k shock package in gained prep work for your shop?? Then again, I probably don't want to know, I'd be kicking myself for not opening my own shop...

 

[betamotorsports]

Perspective question: how many races do you have to win to recoup the cost of the $16k shock package in gained prep work for your shop?? Then again, I probably don't want to know, I'd be kicking myself for not opening my own shop.

My shop's been open for over 5 years and I still don't think I've recouped the cost of the custom built Penske 8760s I had made for my 1970 Datsun 240Z. Wanna know how to make $50,000 a year in the race prep business? Quit your $150,000 a year day job, open a shop, and work 80 hours a week on other people's cars.

 

[jimmyc]

the no RR rules is an outdated attempt to have rules control costs. The current ITAC, doesn't feel strongly enough about it to change the ruling yet, but it wont be to much longer untill they allow them IMO.

RE: the cost

The reason why it is talked about is because Jake, Andy, and Krik have stated that it was put in the rule book to cut costs. That is a fallacie and the rule should be removed. Just like the stupid rule about 'threaded body shocks".

You can spend what ever you want, the fact remains that there are a lot of cars running around with ~$4,000 dollar legal shocks. There are RR shocks around this price point. If you only want to run around on Tociko Blues and stock springs good for you, but that is not going to get you to the front at big races and competitive classes.

 

[lateapex911]

RE: the cost

The reason why it is talked about is because Jake, Andy, and Krik have stated that it was put in the rule book to cut costs.

Just to clarify, none of us three were on the ITAC when the rule was put in place, so we're just reporting what the rational was, to the best of our understanding.....

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

...and IIRC, the ITAC was split right down the middle on this topic.

 

[Z3_GoCar]

So, after remote resovoir shocks are allowed, what's next? Poly/delrin motor mounts? Custom fabricated suspension components? Non stock cams, injectors, intake manifolds? Where is the line drawn? We all have commonaly availble options, and if you want to sink big money, you can have somthing custom build. Hell, I could spend time on a shaker table to tune my koni's, how's that for a big dollar waster. You can't tell me that making RR-shocks avalible will make anything cheaper. That's nuts, because how much will it cost for the extra resovoir with a pressurized seal and a braded steel hose. Materally, it's got to cost more. Also, don't tell me that it can't be better than an integrated resevoir shock, because you've got a larger resevoir with more oil, the oil temp stays cooler, and shock resistance to movement is more consistant. If you get the really high dollar RR shocks, you can even adjust the high speed damping internally, and stay with-in the two external adjustment part of the rule. If the shock resevoir rule is opened up, you've just made eveyones current shock and strut setup obsolete. It really is that simple.

James

 

[Jason Saini]

So, after remote resovoir shocks are allowed, what's next? Poly/delrin motor mounts? Custom fabricated suspension components? Non stock cams, injectors, intake manifolds? Where is the line drawn? We all have commonaly availble options, and if you want to sink big money, you can have somthing custom build. Hell, I could spend time on a shaker table to tune my koni's, how's that for a big dollar waster. You can't tell me that making RR-shocks avalible will make anything cheaper. That's nuts, because how much will it cost for the extra resovoir with a pressurized seal and a braded steel hose. Materally, it's got to cost more. Also, don't tell me that it can't be better than an integrated resevoir shock, because you've got a larger resevoir with more oil, the oil temp stays cooler, and shock resistance to movement is more consistant. If you get the really high dollar RR shocks, you can even adjust the high speed damping internally, and stay with-in the two external adjustment part of the rule. If the shock resevoir rule is opened up, you've just made eveyones current shock and strut setup obsolete. It really is that simple.

James

This is an incredibly short-sighted view. All of the rules creep that you mentioned are completely apples-to-oranges in comparison. RR shocks are not intrinsically better, nor are they always more expensive. The rule simply doesn't do anything to control costs.

Cost in shocks is not in the material (i.e. more metal, hoses, etc.), it's in how intricate and complex the engineering of the components (pistons, shims, etc.) are. There are simple RR shocks, and there are complex non-RR shocks.

There's just too much of a lack of understanding of the factors at play here.

 

[Chris Wire]

So, after remote resovoir shocks are allowed, what's next? Poly/delrin motor mounts? Custom fabricated suspension components? Non stock cams, injectors, intake manifolds? Where is the line drawn? We all have commonaly availble options, and if you want to sink big money, you can have somthing custom build. Hell, I could spend time on a shaker table to tune my koni's, how's that for a big dollar waster. You can't tell me that making RR-shocks avalible will make anything cheaper. That's nuts, because how much will it cost for the extra resovoir with a pressurized seal and a braded steel hose. Materally, it's got to cost more. Also, don't tell me that it can't be better than an integrated resevoir shock, because you've got a larger resevoir with more oil, the oil temp stays cooler, and shock resistance to movement is more consistant. If you get the really high dollar RR shocks, you can even adjust the high speed damping internally, and stay with-in the two external adjustment part of the rule. If the shock resevoir rule is opened up, you've just made eveyones current shock and strut setup obsolete. It really is that simple.

James

Preach on, Brother James!

This is the age-old scenario of turning IT cars into "real race cars" by seeking inclusion in our ruleset for what the "big boys" run. Fully programmable ECUs, diff and trans coolers, brake fans, lexan windows, etc., they've all been requested at one time or another. GT is out there for anyone that has to have it all. And you'll never convince me that the arguement for RR shocks is for anything other than a competitive advantage. I, for one, have enjoyed the discussions on this site since the rule took RR shocks off the table. The mere fact that we haven't had this discussion in a while tells me that not having RR shocks isn't really as big a deal as some would like to make it.

It's interesting to note that while placing restrictions on the type of shocks allowed doesn't guarantee lower cost IT suspensions, it does seem to have had that very result from perception alone. That being that it's far more difficult (or expensive, or both) to achieve with a custom non-RR shock that which might be readily available from the current market of RR shocks. Thus you have far fewer takers going down the custom road to achieve the same result than you would have spending the same money on RR shocks if they were legal.

I'm with Bill on this one, I just don't think the need in IT is there, and I'm plenty comfortable with the rule as it currently stands.

 

[shwah]

Preach on, Brother James!

... brake fans, ...they've all been requested at one time or another.

I like the fact that we can run brake fans, and plan to make a set.

 

[Gary L]

I like the fact that we can run brake fans, and plan to make a set.

Oh Hell, it's the weekend and I'm feeling stupid, so I'll bite... You're gonna do WHAT???

...hoping this is a ploy to get us off the subject of RR shocks.

Again.

 

[924Guy]

I like the fact that we can run brake fans, and plan to make a set.

LOL... I'm not using mine, you wanna buy 'em?

 

[seckerich]

So, after remote resovoir shocks are allowed, what's next? Poly/delrin motor mounts? Custom fabricated suspension components? Non stock cams, injectors, intake manifolds? Where is the line drawn? We all have commonaly availble options, and if you want to sink big money, you can have somthing custom build. Hell, I could spend time on a shaker table to tune my koni's, how's that for a big dollar waster. You can't tell me that making RR-shocks avalible will make anything cheaper. That's nuts, because how much will it cost for the extra resovoir with a pressurized seal and a braded steel hose. Materally, it's got to cost more. Also, don't tell me that it can't be better than an integrated resevoir shock, because you've got a larger resevoir with more oil, the oil temp stays cooler, and shock resistance to movement is more consistant. If you get the really high dollar RR shocks, you can even adjust the high speed damping internally, and stay with-in the two external adjustment part of the rule. If the shock resevoir rule is opened up, you've just made eveyones current shock and strut setup obsolete. It really is that simple.

James

Missing the point James. We already can do that inside the shock. No RR needed. Just CHEAPER and easier on the outside. When the RR was taken away we just moved the valving. You can actually have 4 way adjustment inside the shock. The RR might be a help in an enduro but no noticable heat difference in a sprint with good units. Your shock is probably already obsolete if you don't know this.