SCCA ideas

Topic.
Started out looking for ideas to improve the SCCA experience.
I didnt really think that tech could put off some many people.. And that it was a topic for another thread. But maybe it is a crucial part of our racers going elsewhere.
Tech seems to piss off a lot of members. My drivers have had some issue s, many actually.
I called National ,talked to the head of club tech( or ast,Ryan Miles) .
Simple question; Does SCCA have a written protocol, or customer interface guide, that is handed out to the tech Chiefs??

***WE need Tech to have a customer relations guide."***

Tech should not be hit or miss. it should be the same Nationwide IMHO.
Tech is usally the second interface with new customers. We need to treat these people nicer., simple.
I am guessing that the GA/WC car has the cage tabbed into the A pillars , SO for the pro cars. Maybe also the master switch is not SCCA club located. We have had the same issues with Nascar racecars coming to SCCA.
The fuel port thing is another issue that you all know that is not worth the print. (Actually less safe.)
All we ask is that tech looks at the car and verifies it as safe or not.
Rules are not the issue here. Logbooks can be noted with a pleasant tone of voice and a smile.
"Thanks for coming, hope to see you again"

RE Brian;
Racing schools;
How can any region not have 2 schools in the beginning of each racing season?? WE need to get the new guys' cash before it gets re appropriated ,to things like food. No really, The new guy does a school and has to sit or drive out of region to do another??
Any region that has 1 school a year,or a school in the last month of the year, has a poor business model, IMHO.
With the PDX coming around and selling well, maybe the 1 school drivers could do some PDX time and get the NP.

**2 schools in the beginning of the year**

Logical scheduling; Again,( CFR, 9/1 Sebring) we have 2 non race sessions on sat, Practice for 15min, qualify for 20min, "Total waste of time." (Wife.) cost us a overnight stay for nothing? , 100$ is 100$ that could be spent on beer.

Having the second session as a qualifying race would make all the difference. Having 3 sessions in one day would be nice. Having half of the groups, racing each day would make a lot of sense. Making it 2 , one day events. Minor bitch? maybe, but there are not many non pro events where you have two 20 min sessions per day. Any track day events( or NASA) have 3-4 sessions per day.
** 3 sessions or more each day**
** test one day events**

What else can make the SCCA weekend better??

Notes on NASA @ Sebring;
NASA grids the cars around the east/North paddock roads, and splits the pit exit road. cars come off and goon at the same time, saving lots of track time. the grid/loop holds about 50cars easy. well done.

SCCA has at least 5min or more, dead track time per group. Poor

NASA can change the format on the spot,,with a standup vote. " Do you want to race or qualify the second session?" Race of course. was the answer. Well done.

SCCA has the supps written in stone,, "We cant split the group, the supps are out , "
Really, you are going to race the SM with the prod cars? Can we get a split start?? "maybe" Poor,IMHO
MM
 
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More schools seems like a pretty smart idea.

I don't think that there should be any division between National and Regional. Each race should count toward a points system for the Runoffs. Get enough points and meet a 107% rule and you're in. Top 25 classes by participation get in the Runoffs. IT classes would of course be included. The only exception to allowance into the Runoffs would be a few classes that would be "exhibition only". For example, ITO down South, ITE up here. Considering it is basically an open class it wouldn't make much sense to run it at the Runoffs.

We need to simplify a lot of things in the SCCA. It can be very overwhelming to a newcomer. Too many regions with different rules, championships, etc.
 
Flyinglizard said:
...Logical scheduling; Again,( CFR, 9/1 Sebring) we have 2 non race sessions on sat, Practice for 15min, qualify for 20min, "Total waste of time." (Wife.) cost us a overnight stay for nothing? , 100$ is 100$ that could be spent on beer.

Having the second session as a qualifying race would make all the difference. Having 3 sessions in one day would be nice. Having half of the groups, racing each day would make a lot of sense. Making it 2 , one day events. Minor bitch? maybe, but there are not many non pro events where you have two 20 min sessions per day. Any track day events( or NASA) have 3-4 sessions per day.
** 3 sessions or more each day**
** test one day events**

What else can make the SCCA weekend better??

Notes on NASA @ Sebring
MM
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And this is the BIG issue. The things you see as a "Total waste of time" are (to some) a great tool to test and try new things. Scrub in tires, try a setting change, get comfortable in the seat again. If you take those practice/qual sessions away, you now force some to do a test day to accomplish what can be done in a single weekend. Now more time away from family/work/whatever to try and cram more racing into the weekend. Don't get me wrong - I'm a fan of a 'draw' for starting position and 4-5 races in a weekend. But I'm willing (and able) to take extra time off and pay for a test day or evening test session to scrub tires/brakes if needed.

Single day events - for me, I'll pass. I like spending the weekend at the track. I'm leaving Thursday to be at the track until Sunday. Instructing the PDX and driving the 2x regional. There is a One day option and on Sunday, that would be to start at the back of the qual. race (am) to determine starting postion for the race/race (pm). Already options for a single day or ful weekend with 2 sanctioned races. Test n tune Friday evening after the PDX, so plenty of track time that 'should' give enough options to make everyone happy.

What I'm trying to show is that changes to the structure to make a weekend better will always leave someone feeling that it got worse. My region added a 1hr race to the end of the day Sat. and a 10 lap handicap race to the end of the day Sun. (that pays cash to 1, 2 & 3). Both races are a BLAST and provide track time and fun for a very small fee on top of the weekend price. (IMHO) But some people were unhappy that a group was combined to make room for the other races. Even with 95% of the people being happy, those 5% who weren't now think that this is a bad idea and pass that feeling onto everyone they know.

If your region is struggling to get entries, maybe a change is in order. But blanket changes are not what is needed for club racing. Ideas that work in one region/division may or may not work in another.
 
Flyinglizard said:
...Notes on NASA @ Sebring;
NASA grids the cars around the east/North paddock roads, and splits the pit exit road. cars come off and goon at the same time, saving lots of track time. the grid/loop holds about 50cars easy. well done.

SCCA has at least 5min or more, dead track time per group. Poor
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The difference is to give the workers a minute to check the track, re-set, get a drink, pee... SCCA workers are volunteer - NASA pays the track for workers (at least here), so why would they care if they get a break at all... And those 5 minute 'dead track time' allow for time in the schedule should something go 'wrong'. The NASA schedule has 0 time for any on-track issue. If there is an issue in your group - too bad, you are out the time (and maybe other groups if the cleanup takes too long). SCCA schedule has that 'fluff' built in to try and ensure everyone gets their race/time in for the day. That 5 minutes can be 4, 3, 2 heck - it could even be 1. :)

Flyinglizard said:
NASA can change the format on the spot,,with a standup vote. " Do you want to race or qualify the second session?" Race of course. was the answer. Well done.

SCCA has the supps written in stone,, "We cant split the group, the supps are out , "
Really, you are going to race the SM with the prod cars? Can we get a split start?? "maybe" Poor,IMHO
MM
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Again - Perspective. I like knowing what I signed up for before I show up at the track. I know when I'm racing and what the schedule is like. I do like the idea of having more 'flex' for scheduling and up here - we do. We just changed the race groupings when the groups weren't lining up like we thouoght they would. Not hard to do, but not as easy as making a change on the fly. (which is a good thing to me)
 
downingracing said:
Single day events - for me, I'll pass.
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We (I) spend more on travel then I care to think about. I would have to be chasing a championship to EVER participate in a 1 day event. And I would never drive more than 3 hrs to a 1 day event.

I would suggest speaking to your region about having a lower entry fee for 1 day like we do here in the Northeast. Taht way you can pick if you want to go for 1 or 2 days. I think this will satisfy those that want just 1 day but not send away all the members like myself that like to go for the weekend.

I have neigbors that want to put together a chump car for a local event. Why? Because it was on the news and looked fun. Nothing more complicated then that. All this other stuff if fluff that some will like, some will not... I guarentee that if the news hyped up our SCCA events like they did things would be different!

Stephen
 
team-gpracing said:
More schools seems like a pretty smart idea.
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Schools cost regions tons of money! Think about it... we get 150-250 entries at a normal event and the "break even" point is somewhere in the middle of that. The track charges the same amount of rent if we are doing a school or a race weekend. so to do more schools we need REALLY high participation or REALLY high fees! Or we need to think outside the box and mix it with a race weekend (which I am all for!)

My idea would be to have a FREE school session each weekend for people that do not have any license at all. This would be on Sunday night as the last group of the weekend. Sure your not going to get signed off but you can get a lot of track time hrs and then take the full school when it works for you. In exchange of that FREE session however you would need to work on a corner for that weekend. then come in just before the school session to get out on track. Or maybe make it part of the lunch hr and extend it just a little bit. Others that don't want to work can pay a fee (TBD)

Good luck in each of your own regions, make sure you share your ideas and don't get frustrated if things don't change. I think downing said it best that blanket changes would NOT be good for SCCA and you and your region need to see what your region can change and or do better.
 
Cobrar05 said:
tech should be about safety and thats it. rules compliance should be up to class administration only.
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Write the letter requesting the GCR be changed. Particularly sections 5.9.3.C paragraph 2 and 9.3.21

Having been on both sides of the tech table the attitude of workers in tech and the way they interact with drivers and crew has long been one of my pet peeves. I have had people with tech licenses tell me they will never work another race at which I am chief because I counseled them about their people skills on Saturday after releasing the last group from impound. The main thing I asked them to do was simply to treat the drivers and crew the way they expect to be treated were the roles reversed. It would seem that if some workers cannot bully they don't want to play. To be fair there are tech workers in the division who will go out of their way to take care of our "customers". If they fail your car it is because it was non-compliant, PERIOD. However I know of one inspection where the tech guy was there for over four hours while the car owner corrected the problems, issuing the car a log book the Sunday before a race weekend.

There are many good tech inspectors. Like police officers it is the bad ones that get the most publicity. When was the last time you saw someone make a forum post that said something like this "I went for an annual tech today and everything went well"?
 
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Schools cost money. Schools add new customers to the pool of customers. The business term is loss leader.
I just dont understand how each region can live by being short sighted and turning away new faces on purpose.
Adding the PDX to the same weekend makes sense. maybe a vintage session or two each day.
Schools dont need to be on the big major dollar tracks. The regions could do well to use some smaller tracks. IMHO.
 
Flyinglizard said:
Schools cost money. Schools add new customers to the pool of customers. The business term is loss leader.
I just dont understand how each region can live by being short sighted and turning away new faces on purpose.
Adding the PDX to the same weekend makes sense. maybe a vintage session or two each day.
Schools dont need to be on the big major dollar tracks. The regions could do well to use some smaller tracks. IMHO.
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On the one hand, you are right, we have to find a way to get drivers certified throughout the season and not just at the start or end. Someone could buy a car in June and not be able to get a license and race before May of next year. "not able" also includes not feasible since someone buying a $3500 ITC car is not going to fly to CA to do a Barber school.

On the other hand I think you underestimate how much money can be lost on a school. Divisions can't afford to lose money on one school, let alone two. You can call that short sighted all you want but the money has to come from somewhere and there just isn't $20-30k sitting around waiting to be invested in 10-20 drivers.

so the challenge is how to improve on our current model of 1-2 traditional school per division early in the year, which clearly is a barrier to getting new drivers. Divisions have tried the "school in a race weekend" method before, but it suffers from the same issue as any school, track time costs money and anyone driving around in circles for an hour on the weekend is going to cost money. And it's hard to get enough school time in a race weekend. No one is going to want to attend 3 or 4 school/race weekends to get a license. Same issue with PDX/School. It's still track time and it still costs money and you can still only get a limited number of sessions on track.

Run a school at an off-label track? Now you get resistance from people who don't want to take a school at Nelson or "other track people love to hate". It lowers the cost/loss for the division but doesn't really solve anything the underlying issue.

"Vintage session or two each day". Non-starter, what vintage driver is going to show up for 1 session a day?

I think the alternate license program is the answer. I haven't heard much feedback on how that is going. I know of 1 driver in GLD who went thru that but he ran only two weekends before blowing the car up.

The downside of the alternate license program is that it will not just kill regular schools, it will drive a stake thru their heart, burn them and salt the ground around them. If you are already struggling to make a school financially workable, if you take 10 or 15 drivers a year out of the potential pool by letting them do the alternate license program, you just make the financials even worse for a traditional school. It didn't happen this year because the volume in the ADP was low, but if the volume ramps up at all, traditional schools are dead in the water. And if the volume in ADP doesn't ramp up, then it is not a solution, it's just one more problem.

Edit: "Loss leader?". Milk is a loss leader. Grocery stores don't give away 50 pounds of filet as a loss leader...
 
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jumbojimbo said:
so the challenge is how to improve on our current model of 1-2 traditional school per division early in the year, which clearly is a barrier to getting new drivers. Divisions have tried the "school in a race weekend" method before, but it suffers from the same issue as any school, track time costs money and anyone driving around in circles for an hour on the weekend is going to cost money. And it's hard to get enough school time in a race weekend. No one is going to want to attend 3 or 4 school/race weekends to get a license. Same issue with PDX/School. It's still track time and it still costs money and you can still only get a limited number of sessions on track.
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Agreed, track time costs money. By the flip of the coin, it doesn't cost anymore (track rental wise, don't know about insurance) to run a PDX/time trial/drivers school with a club racing weekend. So the question is, how do we fit them in. How many run groups do we have that only have 5-10 cars? Cant we combine those groups? How about run it in conjunction with a restricted regional, so you limit the classes that don't normally participate. Shorten 7 run groups by 2 minutes and you've gained almost 15 minutes of available track time. Not to mention, almost every weekend I work seems to either have lots of buffer or other wasted time that, if corrected, could increase available track time. I'm willing to bet You could add six twenty minute sessions to most regional weekends (and at the nationals at Nelson, you could probably add twelve!).

jumbojimbo said:
I think the alternate license program is the answer. I haven't heard much feedback on how that is going. I know of 1 driver in GLD who went thru that but he ran only two weekends before blowing the car up.

The downside of the alternate license program is that it will not just kill regular schools, it will drive a stake thru their heart, burn them and salt the ground around them. If you are already struggling to make a school financially workable, if you take 10 or 15 drivers a year out of the potential pool by letting them do the alternate license program, you just make the financials even worse for a traditional school. It didn't happen this year because the volume in the ADP was low, but if the volume ramps up at all, traditional schools are dead in the water. And if the volume in ADP doesn't ramp up, then it is not a solution, it's just one more problem.
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Agreed. This is an intriguing option for me and I've discussed with someone familiar with the program in my region. However, the on track time with other cars available in a school setting is very valuable in my mind. Getting comfortable with other cars around me (and ensuring I don't screw up and it one of them!) is paramount in my mind. The traditional school provides lots of time for that.

Thanks,
Brian
 
protech....two points

1. i would not favor a qualifying race. if i am using up my limited supply of hot laps(tires, fuel, brake pads), i am either getting a qtime or racing for points. i run 4 laps in qualifying. i am not interested in a qualifying race.

also, some of use need a practice session. scuff a set of tires. bed in some brakes. learn a brand new track. i am going to daytona for the scca regional sept 29-30. session 1 is qualifying. ive never been on the track at daytona.

2. scheduling. in case you dont know how nasa schedules, they run first car on to last car off rather than green flag to checker. during many races in nasa they do hot pulls. sending the tow truck out on the track with the race cars. its dangerous. after most races nasa sends out the tow vehicles to clear the course. without any time built into their schedule, nasa starts to shave time from sessions including races.

scca uses that buffer time to keep their schedule on time and everyone getting their full sessions.
 
re: tech
1) the type of person who is inclined to VOLUNTEER as a scrutineer and do it well from a knowledge/understanding standpoint tends to not be a warm fuzzy type, but an older, educated, detail oriented person. racers have a tendancy to be Type A assholes, too. just from these 2 facts you already have a problem.
2) techs are ASKED to find problems. 2 items are to be checked in impound on every car there, plus weight, per GCR. drivers who are hot and just out of the car tend to NOT be interested in being told they are non compliant (see 1). and there's a schedule to stick to. the constant confrontation ends up embittering the tech guys, too. after some of the BS I've seen drivers start with techs, we're lucky they show up at all. not to say I haven't seen techs be flat wrong, arrogant, or impollite, but that side of the story has been well aired.
2b) being in CFR, I hear about how "there is no tech" in FL CONSTANTLY from those out of the state. you can't have it both ways - either tech is intrusive to a degree, or they are not. one results in possible aggrevateion BY a tech, the other in aggrevation with tech in general.
3) it would be awesome if everyone was friendly at tech. I really wish they all were. but it would be great if the drivers would work WITH tech, too, and even better if everyone who showed up knew what the rules were for their car and class. it only takes 3-4 shitheads to ruin someone's mood and then it snowballs and everyone has to deal with the ripples. some peoples personallities handle that better than others.

racers are customers, but the "employees" of the business they are patronizing are volunteers, and all of us are in the same club. racers should be required to volunteer as part of lisence maintenance. the understanding of those jobs combined with everyone getting to know each other a little bit better can only be a good thing.
 
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re: schools
Alternate format schools are good. I think, in general, some amount of controlled environment track time BEFORE school A'la PDX or NASA's HPDE program is a GREAT idea. if the idea is to get butts in seats and on the entry roles ASAP, though, then you have a problem if you ask for a lot of experience. SCCA should have more "track days" in the PDX equation. other clubs do it, we should do it better.

double schools ROCK. tons of track time. the only thing I would change is to add sessions for the instructors, maybe even a "real" race for the students to watch. do open wheels sat and tin tops on sunday, splitting them into slow and fast groups. 1 hour out of each day, charge a small price, and I promise the instructor count will go up, budget problems will relax, and the programs can stay alive as there is real value in them.

PDX sessions mixed in with the school will add 4 things - more money, more experienced club drivers moving toward a racing license, exposure to those drivers of the racing school program, and ongoing opportunities for at-speed station wagon or 2-seat racecar instruction for the race school students. it might mean a bit less actual seat time for them, but I think the overall benefit of the weekend will go up.
 
Chip42 said:
3) it would be awesome if everyone was friendly at tech. I really wish they all were. but it would be great if the drivers would work WITH tech, too, and even better if everyone who showed up knew what the rules were for their car and class. it only takes 3-4 shitheads to ruin someone's mood and then it snowballs and everyone has to deal with the ripples. some peoples personallities handle that better than others.

racers are customers, but the "employees" of the business they are patronizing are volunteers, and all of us are in the same club. racers should be required to volunteer as part of lisence maintenance. the understanding of those jobs combined with everyone getting to know each other a little bit better can only be a good thing.
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Well put, Chip. I have always felt that if everyone volunteered for a few hours a year, there would be a lot more communication and understanding than the finger pointing and complaining that sometimes exists. I would even support a requirement to do so, as was the case when I first got my competition license. I've volunteered a good bit over the years and have made some great friends in the process, and I even earn a nice discount on my Nat'l and Regional dues. Anyone who finds fault with something and wants to help find a solution, at your next event, pick a specialty and go do it!
I can't and won't complain about the techs in the WDCR, but their numbers are dwindling for many reasons, mostly their taking the endless BS. I have personally developed an excellent relationship over the years with a couple guys who come to my house to tech my car! That's way above and beyond.
:024:
 
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Chip that is one of the best ideas I have seen in some time to add PDX or a race to the school. Not sure of the schedule for the super school at Roebling, but I would bet it could be fit in.

2 schools per region is a dream. I hope you meant division? $20,000 to $40,000 over how many students? Loss leader, who's money do you plan to lose? There has been talk of a division school later in the year and Florida had been good to put them in their regional weekends. Need 60 plus to really make it viable. Many race weekends take the sprint races and the enduro to cover the bills so it is hard to fit more groups in unless they have the same numbers as the enduro.

I will not even touch the tech debate, as that is one of my pet peeves in our region. I expect all my officials to treat our drivers like valued customers and expect the same from the drivers. It has to start somewhere. I spent most of the day Friday at CMS going through the paddock during our test day doing annuals. Rained Friday night so we went to the drivers garage to keep them out of the rain. Not hard to have mutual respect.

I have watched a tech official scream at a driver before and wonder why they would ever come back. I remember showing up at my drivers school late 80's and they gave me a list of 20+ things to fix by morning. I still have that list to remind me we are there to help drivers get on track safely, not make their day bad.
 
So part of the appeal of of the "crapcan" racing organizations is that a group of people can go in on a single car and spread the work and costs around. Perhaps an SCCA region could replicate the effect w/o upsetting our current weekend race structure.

Currently when I register for a weekend, it's something like $250 for Saturday, $350 for both days, and an additional $125 each day for a second "double dip" class. Now if a "team" of 4 could register their car and it's drivers collectively for $600, the club would bring in the same income. Meanwhile, the team members each get by with a $150 entry fee, 25% of the travel expenses, 25% of the build price, etc. And for that, they each get a qualifying session and a race. And they'll most likely be comparing data amongst themselves from the same car/weekend/track to become better drivers. Their total costs should start to become more competitive with the LeChump series if they're looking at class combinations like IT* and ST*.

Now here's the catch: for it to work, the fact that SCCA Club Racing now has a team racing option available would need to be promoted nationwide. There needs to be enough publicized events for people to feel comfortable spending the money to form an SCCA Club Race team. It's all in the promotion and getting the participants to become evangelists.
 
So, based on what you are saying, one driver pays $350 & $125= $475 X4 drivers =$1900.
The new way the region collects $600......
Who's gonna pay for the track rental:shrug:
 
We already do that in CCR. We have a deal for 2 sprints and 2 enduros for $700 to $800 depending on track. We count the car as entrant and let the drivers share. Most have each run a sprint, and share the enduro. I am sure other regions have a similar setup. Regions pay insurance by car, not driver. There are deals out there, you just need to do some homework.
 
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