SCCA ideas

[RSTPerformance]

Here is a CRAZY idea... Eliminate schools. Yes I said eliminate them and make it easier for people to start racing with us.

Much like when i joined the Stewards program we (SCCA) overkilled training and make it nearly impossible to participate. Realistically an SCCA school does not teach anyone how to race, it is a test to see if you drive safe. You can tell this in one session.

Most people will drive safe (look at chump car and or lemons). We should not fool ourselves into thinking we are teaching people to race. Save that for the real race schools located throughout the country. Encourage people to attend those schools or attend PDX events to get experience prior to taking a classroom test and participating in a driving/novice race session.

Obviously this would also encourage growth in the separation/advancement between Regional and National racing.

One other important thing I agree with... Blanket rules will not work, let the regions have local control on how races weekends are set up to meet the needs of the local markets.

Raymond

 

[StephenB]

Don't we already accept credited schools like Skip Barbera and such?

No School is foolish IMHO. sorry dude.

I would be fine with a "school Group" for your first 4 weekends then get signed off to race with everyone else in regionals. After your 4 regionals then you can get a national license like the current system.

We could have 1 "school group" scheduled in with our current racing program. Maybe 1 practice at the end of Saturday and then 1 race on Sunday afternoon that includes a red flag at some point with a restart then a finish. With that format maybe people can share/rent cars and make a bit of money so they themselves can race.

Keep the limited schools we already have mixed with a race weekend like NER did this year for those that want to get signed off and race right away.

 

[RSTPerformance]

Good thought Stephen...

I am not going stand up and fight to eliminate schools but we do need to think outside the box. First we need to look at our schools and see what we are really trying to accomplish. The format/idea hasn't changed in 20years and it is a major difference as compared to other organizations that have safer racing and seem to be growing much much faster.

As I said, our schools are more like a long test to prove you are someone we would want to race next to. A majority of students if not 99% probably pass once they meet the min requirements. Currently Operating Stewards and the flaggers watch all novices in the first few races to be sure they are safe and keeping up with the field.

It is not a welcoming, easy, efficient, or necessary process. We need to make it easier and cheaper for people to race with us and "catch the bug."

Raymond

 

[forestdweller37]

So, based on what you are saying, one driver pays $350 & $125= $475 X4 drivers =$1900.
The new way the region collects $600......
Who's gonna pay for the track rental

Right now, a single driver who double dips both days pays $350 + $125 + $125 = $600. Those other four guys aren't showing up at all because racing is simply too expensive for them.

The new way would have me still paying $600 for my four races (plus my $180 in tow gas, plus hotel, etc.) Those four team members now show up because they can each afford 25% of a race weekends cost. The region's income goes from just $600 to $600 (from me) + $600 (from the team of new guys) = $1200.

We already do that in CCR. We have a deal for 2 sprints and 2 enduros for $700 to $800 depending on track. We count the car as entrant and let the drivers share. Most have each run a sprint, and share the enduro. I am sure other regions have a similar setup. Regions pay insurance by car, not driver. There are deals out there, you just need to do some homework.

Great! Except for the homework part. That effort should not be necessary. It should be right up front, readily understandable, and actively marketed to the casual wanna-be road racers. This is part of the marketing genius behind LeChump.

"Hey everyone! Want to race for cheap and not have to deal with silly costumes*, totally unequal performance cars, arbitrary penalties, crazy advanced entry deadlines, and cars that are such POS's that you don't even know if you'll get to drive? Grab some friends and try the new SCCA Team Challenge! We won't duck tape you to a telephone pole!"

*Full disclosure on the silly costumes thing: I did see a worker wearing a chicken hat at Road America last weekend, but I'm pretty sure he would have worn it regardless of what he was doing...

 

[team-gpracing]

You can call that short sighted all you want but the money has to come from somewhere and there just isn't $20-30k sitting around waiting to be invested in 10-20 drivers.

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't 10-20 new drivers cover that 20-30k in a year? Forget the years after that.

 

[lawtonglenn]

.... hmmm the Team idea sound interesting... it depends on how many
people currently racing as singles would migrate to teams... I know
that I wouldn't, and I'd guess that most people currently racing wouldn't....

let's take the Cheap Date as an example

currently the fee is $325 for a qual and 3races, or $485 for 2qual + 6races

if the team price was $600 for 2qual and 6 races (the car has to be double dippable)
then if two people split it they could each get 1qual + 3races

• if no current drivers migrate to teams, then any teams would be additional revenue
  
• however, if any singles migrate, it would be a loss of $325x2-$600 = $50 each migration

if the team price was $600 for 2qual and 6 races (the car has to be double dippable)
then if four people split it then two could each get 1qual + 1race
and the other two could get 2 races each (and start from the back)

• if no current drivers migrate to teams, then any teams would be additional revenue
  
• any migrators would be reducing their participation, but let's say
  some would rather pay less and race less... if two people migrated
  to join a team of four , it would be the same loss $325x2-$600 = $50
  
• if four migrated to join a team of four it would be $325x4-$600= $650 loss
  ... however... I'd be willing to bet that this would be a rare occurance
  (since the 4 migrators already have at least two and probably four cars between them)

I would say it was a strong bet that the number of new teams (not migrators)
would far outweigh the number of 4 into 1 migrations, and that we can
effectively ignore the 2 into 1 migrations ($50) ...

so I think it would be a net POSITIVE, and that we should do it !!!!!

CONS: works well for triples, a little less well for doubles, but not at all for single race weekends

PROS: any new people coming in as 1/4 of a team are opportunities to grow into individual drivers

.

 

[wally2]

On the other hand I think you underestimate how much money can be lost on a school. Divisions can't afford to lose money on one school, let alone two. You can call that short sighted all you want but the money has to come from somewhere and there just isn't $20-30k sitting around waiting to be invested in 10-20 drivers.

How about imposing a small fee on each race entry throughout the year to subsidize a driver school the next year? Ten races in GLDiv, 150 entries per race, $20 per entry equals your $30k to hold driver school.

 

[jhooten]

Because, in this economy, I am doing everything I can to if not reduce entry fees to at least keep them from going up trying to keep the entries to our events from dropping below the break even point. Five years ago we would get 200, two years ago 160, this and last year if we got 120 we were dancing in the paddock.

 

[Matt93SE]

How about imposing a small fee on each race entry throughout the year to subsidize a driver school the next year? Ten races in GLDiv, 150 entries per race, $20 per entry equals your $30k to hold driver school.

Would you pay $475 for a double weekend?
Costs are already high enough as-is with us subsidizing the track and their insurance company along with the SCCA and THEIR insurance company.

In our region, Hooten is right- we have a hard enough time getting entries currently. raising prices even more is only going to drive additional racers away.

 

[jumbojimbo]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't 10-20 new drivers cover that 20-30k in a year? Forget the years after that.

Yep, you are right, even if you are conservative and factor in that some drivers at the school will be from another division and not every driver who passes school runs a full season.

Even if you only get 10 new drivers at 5 events at $350, that's $18k.

 

[tom91ita]

I think this is where SCCA can learn from NASA. Integrate PDX or HPDE into the weekends so there is a means to licensing as a part of a "normal" race weekend.

Especially in areas where there a high cost associated with the tracks. In the great lakes we can have schools at lower cost sites like gingerman. There should be more flexibility.

 

[downingracing]

Yep, you are right, even if you are conservative and factor in that some drivers at the school will be from another division and not every driver who passes school runs a full season.

Even if you only get 10 new drivers at 5 events at $350, that's $18k.

Sort of. The $20k would be real cash out as a loss. That $18k back in is 'gross' money. Once you subtract out the costs associated with each weekend, the 'net' is WAY less for those 10 new drivers. I know how much the potential profit from a race weekend is... We want to be in the + at the end of a weekend, but it doesn't always work out that way.

You would need several regions to go together to share the 'loss' for the school. Those 5 events above will probably be between 4-5 regions. Many regions would not be able to take a hit to the books to support the loss from the school. And there are 'racing regions' as well as 'non-racing regions'... I'm a big fan of schools. I also know how much of a loss they are (or can be). I know we (OVR) can't do one at Mid-O due to the cost of a weekend. I wish I had the answer.

 

[Knestis]

... I would be fine with a "school Group" for your first 4 weekends then get signed off to race with everyone else in regionals. After your 4 regionals then you can get a national license like the current system.

We could have 1 "school group" scheduled in with our current racing program. Maybe 1 practice at the end of Saturday and then 1 race on Sunday afternoon that includes a red flag at some point with a restart then a finish. With that format maybe people can share/rent cars and make a bit of money so they themselves can race. ...

This is precisely what ICSCC ("Conference") used to do - and still does for all I know - out in the NW. They ran "novice open wheel" and "novice closed wheel" groups every weekend, for which drivers could qualify from a school that was very much like a HPDE thing - no race car required. Senior drivers would watch on the corners and file reports on on-track behavior and competency.

K

 

[forestdweller37]

I think this is where SCCA can learn from NASA. Integrate PDX or HPDE into the weekends so there is a means to licensing as a part of a "normal" race weekend.

Especially in areas where there a high cost associated with the tracks. In the great lakes we can have schools at lower cost sites like gingerman. There should be more flexibility.

The beauty of this approach is that now anyone can come to a race weekend and get out on the track. More people can get on track -> more people show up -> more take the club racing plunge.

 

[bvondran]

Sort of. The $20k would be real cash out as a loss. That $18k back in is 'gross' money. Once you subtract out the costs associated with each weekend, the 'net' is WAY less for those 10 new drivers. I know how much the potential profit from a race weekend is... We want to be in the + at the end of a weekend, but it doesn't always work out that way.

You would need several regions to go together to share the 'loss' for the school. Those 5 events above will probably be between 4-5 regions. Many regions would not be able to take a hit to the books to support the loss from the school. And there are 'racing regions' as well as 'non-racing regions'... I'm a big fan of schools. I also know how much of a loss they are (or can be). I know we (OVR) can't do one at Mid-O due to the cost of a weekend. I wish I had the answer.

I would think your costs for each weekend would be 99% fixed (I.e., track rental doesn't change regardless of number of entries, not sure about insurance). If that's true, the extra entry fees are gravy.

Brian

 

[Flyinglizard]

Casual observations post race weekend; WE had a great time running the old Rocc in HP with close racing, 2xP2 both last lap passes. (Sebring long)

CFR had a mid/advanced session for PDX , mixed into the schedule for Sun, no instructors.
I had my #2 driver running the Chumpcar, 160hp, 2000#, pretty fast.. The competence level of drivers for this group was determined by verbal history. (You told the chief guy if you are any good). I would have to say that 1/2 of the drivers would not have been signed off anywhere else.
This resulted in at least 2 hard impacts, many very slow or no point bys. etc.

My Son and I instruct for many of the private clubs that run @ Sebring. Neither of us are "Qualified" to instruct for the SCCA racing schools.
We are qualified to instruct for the TT/ PDX schools. Why is it any different? Same track same instruction.

I also realized that when I have to instruct one of my new Chump drivers, ( all 12 Protech drivers have to have some laps @ Sebring pre race) I have to use one of the private clubs to do incar coaching. SCCA is the only group that has a race school without in car coaching.
A major improvement ,IMHo would add at least one session of ridealong, and 2-3sessions of in car coaching. Maybe the entire first day?
The result would be a much higher quality of racer.

All of the track day clubs swap instruction for track time, SCCA has not done that, results are no instructors.

The PDX, with good incar instruction, is still a very large market.SCCA has been very slow to enter and may never catch up without some advertising. When we talk to a car guy at the solo or gas station, we need a valid point of entry for this driver and his car.
"Can I drive my car @ Sebring?" yes you may..

NASA has a ladder system with TT/PDX for beginners . In reality it is way harder to get a race license through NASA than SCCA, In fact My son did the Roebling double school, to race the next NASA race. NASA wanted a few days of in car assessment, etc.

RE Chumpcar racing; The requirement of 4 drivers increases the odds of have a team coach.( our current team has at least 8 SCCA racers)
Miss a flag and you come in and sit, miss 2 flags and you may have to exit car.
Chumpcar is far from perfect with no rules, no driver requirements. The results are not any different than SCCA with all of it's requirements. The driving has the same variation, with more point bys, same apexing without looking. All of the usual suspects and racing crap. SCCA has better car to car racing as a rule.

As it is now, the Chumpcar racers want to race the long races, on epic tracks.( 14hrs @ Daytona, 14hrs @ Sebring,24hr @ VIR, 25.5hrs @ Nelson,ugh) I see no interest in running any 30 min SCCA race, in those drivers.

I rent some scca, school cars, The driver will ask , " what is the next school?, next race, etc. " My next race is the Chumpcar bla bla. " Can I race??" Yes you may. The next SCCA school may be 4-6 months away. He may never go back to SCCA. or may even use SCCA as a stepping stone to Chump .
There is a market that Chumpcar has filled, easy access, long races.

I have no real points here just, observations.

RE; novice race groups working on one school, ***great idea*** , mix in some instructor/ racers/monitors.
MM

 

[Matt93SE]

Another dumb Q.. Instead of losing money on a SCCA school, what about offering an Advanced Racing school in addition?
i.e. instead of just the 10-20 new guys taking one class, what about same 10-20 new guys and another 10-20 guys that have been racing for a year or two but want some advanced instruction like you'd get at a Skip Barber course or something similar.
IIRC, my 2-day SCCA school cost around $650 or so. 8hrs on track in 2 days, and about 4 hrs classroom. That got me my license.
As a "moderately experienced" racer, I'd be willing to pay $1200 or so for the same amount of seat time with some real instruction vs. just making laps with n00bs.

Of course you'd have to pay more for "better" instructors, but that would be offset by the additional entries to the school and the guys willing to pay more for better attention.

as it is, MSR-Houston offers such courses several times a year and is just as big a source of new SCCA racers as our annual SCCA-hosted school at another track in the area.

Just something to think about.

 

[forestdweller37]

Another dumb Q.. Instead of losing money on a SCCA school, what about offering an Advanced Racing school in addition?

Well you certainly have MY attention now!

In regions with large active (and Nationally successful) Solo programs, there's a lot of emphasis on training drivers. It's not just novice training either, but intermediate and advanced training. The Porsche Club of America's format might be worth taking a look at in this regard.

 

[bhudson]

These are all great ideas - we (SCCA) certainly need to look at alternatives to "the way we've always done it."

Next step - forward your ideas to your Area Director on the SCCA Board of Directors.

 

[Flyinglizard]

Maybe TT should have some club /race relationship. Signed off TT guy wil need only one school or could go right into the Novice race group at the next race?