Street tires in IT??
- Thread starter lateapex911
- Start date
Im trying to find info on the race. What region is sponsoring it? Is it the weekend of Aug 17 & 18?
Hi Mike,
Sounds to me like ITX was set to run in Group 2 (with IT) and is now in Group 4. This will let the IT-street tire group run in both groups if they want to... double dippers welcomed.
Much better change the car & can be recovered if it is Aug 17th. Are you interested if it happens?
lateapex911
Super Moderator
BTW ive only run once with Steves region and man do those guys fit in a lot of tracktime!!
Steve tries to please every one possible. Great events!!!
Steve tries to please every one possible. Great events!!!
I was already planning to get up to CMS to help at tech, but not to race. now that there's a good double-dip option for an ITB car (STL is not) I'll talk to the other TrackSpeed guys today, see if there's interest in splitting one or 2 of the cars in ITB/ITX on streets. plus the ECR or CCPS or ProIT or whatever is the long race. We might well be interested in this, and if so then Mike, we might be interested in borrowing a set of 205's for the X and "enduro" races. I was planning on buying some rivals anyhow, might just do that.
RSTPerformance
New member
I got lost quick... Might be the heat and our long tow to Watkins Glen! What is ITX? A catch all for all IT cars with street tires?
Raymond
Raymond
roughly equivalent to ITE - allows IT safety compliant cars that don't otherwise fit a class. so NASA spec classes, LeChumps, double dipping or modified IT cars, whatever.
run the IT race in class, run the ITX race to double dip, run the long race, too. up to 1h45m of RACE time total if you just do 1 day, and that's assuming a 45 min "long race". I'm not 100% sure of the format, Charlotte has a funny schedule due to the no race engines before noon on sundays rule.
Only "tricky" thing for your car is that it's not IT legal... you'll still only have ITX to run in. Unless there's an "ITJ" class running with IT?
PS
Probably wouldn't be able to make it that far for the weekend anyway.
Do they run an ITE class as part of the IT races? If so than can a LeChump run ITE with the IT groups & ITX with group 4?
Let's keep in touch. I'd love to bring my car if it works out. I may have 3 sets of streets mounted up - all 15x7 or 15x8, 4x100. Either way I'll do my best to get up there with a few sets of tires. It will be a good time meeting you and some of the other guys I've only met on the InterToobz
Mike, I plan to be there still but it's not looking good for me to drive. first, I'm in ITB and ITX is in the same run group, so no double dipping for me in the sprints. second, my would be co-driver is much more interested in the SIC and already has plans to attend the labor day weekend race at Barber, which should suit his car well, meaning he's tapped out at that time. third, my car hasn't been fully reassembled after a wreck in feb, it's close, but with basically 3 weekends and the rest of "life" it's not looking promising, and if I do get it done, it will have no testing. 4th, I'm kinda broke. especially without my codriver, that's a big towing cost for a guy in orlando.
but I still think it's great what the CCR is doing, and will be there to help out in Tech.
Understand completely. Ill plan to be there if anyone want to try street tires and mine will fit - I'll quite happily lend them out to any IT car that wants to try streets in ITX.
I may bring my car but budget may get in the way too. I've already budgeted out the rest of this years schedule which includes a 14 hour & a 15 hours race, so would have to steal $$ from things like my two college going kids. Or food for me which would not be a bad thing...
On a side note - ran into the head guy of a local LeMons team today that runs an Integra. I ran the idea of running SCCA Sprint races by him and his eyes got big. They switched to the Integra this year with the thought of finding a place to go sprint racing - probably NASA. I'll be sending him info on how to get his drivers SCCA comp licenses so maybe next year they will come out and play.
seckerich
New member
ITX is a catch all to some extent, but intended to give PCA, BMW, and other spec series a place where they can run in SCCA. Keep in mind that group 4 at CMS has everything from ITB to SPU and cars need to fit in that speed and weight range. We are giving you a chance to run your "similar to IT" cars in a class so you get to see if you like sprint racing. We will not stick some high powered camero, etc in with this group and screw up their racing, so use some judgement. Entries seen as outside IT parameters will be rejected. ITX will be required to run DOT tires. No slicks.
As Chip mentioned it also gives you a place to double dip all IT classes. Some drivers are coming from a long distance away and are sharing the car to cut expenses. You are our customers and we will work with you as much as we can.
As Chip mentioned it also gives you a place to double dip all IT classes. Some drivers are coming from a long distance away and are sharing the car to cut expenses. You are our customers and we will work with you as much as we can.
RSTPerformance
New member
Ok, Thanks for the info. It's great you guys are doing that for your region and I love the fact that people can bring IT "like" cars and all run together!
Back on topic though... Street Tires in IT! I was not on my game today so the lap times from qualifying don't come close to a comparison with my brother IMO. However I can say that yes, the street tires are a blast to run on and are safe/easy to drive. I can also say in sprint racing format a street tire will never compete with an r compound tire. I personally think at this point if you really want street tire races (fully support te idea) you need to have some structured classes for people to run in. You will never get people off that purple crack... It is very hard for me to resist the temptation tonight but I really want to give the tires am honest shot in a race and it is a great equalizer against my dads ITS Porsche ( we qualified .03 from each other!).
Will report back tomorrow night!
Raymond
RSTPerformance
New member
Ok... Today was a much better test of used race tires vs street tires on a heavy (3,000lb) ITR car. On the street tires (Dunlop Direzza ZII) I got down to a 2:18.2. Stephen ran a few hours later and got down to a 2:15.4 on Hoosiers.
I will say that at the 1.18's I did quickly overheat the tires causing the car to get very loose. Ended up spinning in the carosel (after the bus stop full speed) That left several feet of black rubber on the pavement as smoke quickly filled the air... When I pulled away I expected some major thud thud thud noises from flat spotted tires but much to my surprise nothing... The tires continued to perform as if nothing happened in acceleration, turning and braking. So yet another reason the tires can be a good thing: you can mess up badly and still not destroy these tires!
I finished 10th overall in a 30 mixed car field (even with a spin) and had a blast doing it. In the regional (non ProIT) I would have probably finished mid/back pack. However, I (and you) would not have a chance at fighting for a sprint race win on them. Because of that, most people will only last so long doing "what if" before they get r compound tires.
I still really think to be successfull we need to set up a seperate race group for double dipping on street tires... It worked with SM and while it might not work for all IT classes it would be a good intro race group for those getting into SCCA, those racing on a budget, or those teams with multiple drivers sharing a car.
Raymond
I will say that at the 1.18's I did quickly overheat the tires causing the car to get very loose. Ended up spinning in the carosel (after the bus stop full speed) That left several feet of black rubber on the pavement as smoke quickly filled the air... When I pulled away I expected some major thud thud thud noises from flat spotted tires but much to my surprise nothing... The tires continued to perform as if nothing happened in acceleration, turning and braking. So yet another reason the tires can be a good thing: you can mess up badly and still not destroy these tires!
I finished 10th overall in a 30 mixed car field (even with a spin) and had a blast doing it. In the regional (non ProIT) I would have probably finished mid/back pack. However, I (and you) would not have a chance at fighting for a sprint race win on them. Because of that, most people will only last so long doing "what if" before they get r compound tires.
I still really think to be successfull we need to set up a seperate race group for double dipping on street tires... It worked with SM and while it might not work for all IT classes it would be a good intro race group for those getting into SCCA, those racing on a budget, or those teams with multiple drivers sharing a car.
Raymond
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RSTPerformance
New member
Kirk-
I think we were both "on" yesterday... I do not think Stephen would have been faster than I was if he was running on the Dunlop’s and I don't think that I would have been faster than him if I were on the Hoosiers. Stephen turned his personal best lap times I think. He was NOT on brand new Hoosiers so a little more might be gained for a session or two if you went out and purchased new tires. I also wasn't on brand new Dunlop’s either but I really don't think that would gain me anything if I was, from what we have found the tires perform the same no matter how many heat cycles or time on them (that is one of the best parts about the tires!)
My fast times on the Dunlop’s were when I was chasing down the 9th overall car (I really wanted that position). After two consecutive 2:18's the car became very loose and I ended up spinning. After continuing the car was still loose for a few turns so I backed off a little and took it easy for the rest of that lap (almost felt like a tire going down). After getting my confidence back and letting the tires cool down I was able to get right back to race speed and hold on to the 10th overall position. Comparing this to the Devil, the times were similar to our team’s fast laps (faster than most of the SM cars). I think for our set-up I should be able to run consistent 2:19’s without overworking the tires (I would probably run 2:16’s with the “r” compound).
I think everyone’s estimate of 2 – 3 seconds a lap slower is a good estimate. Heavier cars and those with more horsepower will probably see the biggest drop in lap times and obviously the longer the track the further off “per lap” your pace will be (remember at the glen we are talking average IT lap times around 2:20 or so...). Also the tracks and cars that demand carrying more speed through the turns (like the Glen) might see a bigger loss as well.
To me, I love the tires and will likely always race a “real” enduro on them (It just doesn’t make sense not to). For races short enough where you can run an “r” compound without doing a tire swap it will be hard for people to resist the temptation of the faster tire… unless they don’t have the budget for tires and don’t have access to any used ones. The street tire is just as much fun to race on but I think it would be nearly impossible to get everyone to change over without a rule (kudo’s to the IT7 crowd up here in the Northeast!). Unfortunately I think that making a tire rule for IT would hurt our class as some of the higher end teams/drivers that “raise the bar” would IMO likely look elsewhere to race.
Raymond
PS: The Glen isn’t our home track so we could be faster with more time but I am confident in all of the data as it is based on two experienced drivers both with experience at the track (Average of 1-2 races per year at the track). I would say that for the average front runner the data is spot on.
Don't forget that the car is (or should have been) optimized for a much stickier tire.
Certainly there are some gains to be had from setting the car up for the 200 tires.
It's too bad we can't turn the clock back in IT including going to the 200 TW tires.
Unfortunately there's too much to unwind. In 1984 the ITB lap record at Limerock was 1:07! and the Rabbit that did it was reputedly illegal and I was on used 944 street takeoffs trying to hang on and not get lapped-but I was having fun! That winter I "actually" prepped the car and put some real race rate springs and shocks on, alignment, corner weight, and converted to 142"E" spec with fuel injection. I remember running the 1st iteration Yokohama 008 tires on the Volvo with rubber bushings everywhere that season. I ran 12 races on 5 008s and set lap records the last 2 races. I drove everywhere on the tires too!
I don't see how the class can be "re-invented" but it sure would be great if it could.
It's almost like there needs to be a clean sheet of paper and a new set of classes, but that would be a bad plan.
I hate to say it because I treasure my years with SCCA, but some of these other series rhyme with Improved Touring as it existed in the beginning. Tires have come so far that I felt it necessary to magna flux the Volvo and A2 steering knuckles in the off-season lest one fail on track.
You know, the first time I raced the Volvo, we threw a MGB roll-bar in it to run an EMRA night relay race at Pocono. I knew something was wrong when I had more fun in my street car on 165x15 Contis than driving a well prepared FP Sprite! Fun is Fun no matter what the speed!
Certainly there are some gains to be had from setting the car up for the 200 tires.
It's too bad we can't turn the clock back in IT including going to the 200 TW tires.
Unfortunately there's too much to unwind. In 1984 the ITB lap record at Limerock was 1:07! and the Rabbit that did it was reputedly illegal and I was on used 944 street takeoffs trying to hang on and not get lapped-but I was having fun! That winter I "actually" prepped the car and put some real race rate springs and shocks on, alignment, corner weight, and converted to 142"E" spec with fuel injection. I remember running the 1st iteration Yokohama 008 tires on the Volvo with rubber bushings everywhere that season. I ran 12 races on 5 008s and set lap records the last 2 races. I drove everywhere on the tires too!
I don't see how the class can be "re-invented" but it sure would be great if it could.
It's almost like there needs to be a clean sheet of paper and a new set of classes, but that would be a bad plan.
I hate to say it because I treasure my years with SCCA, but some of these other series rhyme with Improved Touring as it existed in the beginning. Tires have come so far that I felt it necessary to magna flux the Volvo and A2 steering knuckles in the off-season lest one fail on track.
You know, the first time I raced the Volvo, we threw a MGB roll-bar in it to run an EMRA night relay race at Pocono. I knew something was wrong when I had more fun in my street car on 165x15 Contis than driving a well prepared FP Sprite! Fun is Fun no matter what the speed!
Ron Earp
Administrator
Approximately three seconds to the Ho Hos over 200TW street tires, old ho hos at that, is a huge margin. And it could even be more with new ho hos. Sort of pops that "200TW are almost as good as ho ho" balloon.
I believe we'll be getting some more data from Jeff Young at CMS; one driver, one car. He's got some new 200TW tires coming that he'll run against his normal purple crack. CMS isn't a handling course, so if there is a difference between the tires at CMS then we'll be reasonably sure the difference is real and not a testing artifact.
I believe we'll be getting some more data from Jeff Young at CMS; one driver, one car. He's got some new 200TW tires coming that he'll run against his normal purple crack. CMS isn't a handling course, so if there is a difference between the tires at CMS then we'll be reasonably sure the difference is real and not a testing artifact.
Intersting. Three seconds on a 2 minute-ish course is alot. I wonder if the Rivals would be closer? I pciked up over 1 second at Road Atlanta going from 205/15 Dunlop ZIIs to 225/15 Rivals, and did a stint at Daytona where I started on the Dunlops and changed tires to the Rivals mid stint. In this case the Rivals were 1.5 seconds faster on a 2:27-ish lap.
I wonder if the difference would be less on a lighter car? My MX-3 is ~2350 with me in the seat.
I'd love to try a set of HoHos on my LeChump MX-3 as it is running 1:47.2 at RA in the heat on the Rivals which was about 2.5 seconds off of the fast Spec Miata guys that weekend.