Street tires in IT??

[lateapex911]

Differences will be less on lighter low hp cars. Think about it: At Lime Rock, ITC and ITB cars are often flat from the left hander all the way thru the uphill, thru westbend and even down the downhill. They have cornering capability to spare. Even a lesser compound tire could be flat and lap times would barely be affected. An ITS car though, has to brake or lift at all those turns, and will have to even more on lesser tires.

Thats why, when I was suggesting a percentage weight break as a 'reward" for using 200TW tires, I said it would be dependent upon the class....small amounts for lower classes to higher amounts for ITS and ITR.

Even then of course, it is STILL track and car dependent. Of course, our standard deviation of weight accuracy isn't perfect, so at some point you have to pick a number and say "close enough".

The 3 second difference at the long course at the Glen suggests a 1.3 or so difference at a short course like Lime Rock. (one data point)

 

[Ron Earp]

The 3 second difference at the long course at the Glen suggests a 1.3 or so difference at a short course like Lime Rock. (one data point)

Either way it is an asswhooping when compared to race tires. I expect that when a few tests are done the "200TW is almost as good as race tires" claim is going to evaporate.

Jeff is testing the Rival I believe and I'm still interested to run them.

 

[Tom R]

"Three seconds on a 2 minute-ish course" is not much faster for a lot more money. It would be great if you guys could work something out to make street tires competitive.

I think that the weight penalty is a great idea. It is certainly not a perfect solution, but in multi-class multi-car racing nothing is. Start by getting a conservative weight penalty system in place and optimizing it with time.

The ability to run street thread in NASA PT classes has always appealed to me, but there is no point without participation.

 

[Chip42]

The answer I support will NOT include weight penalties or breaks. Street tires are NOT being looked at to become the law of the land in IT, and I see NO reason to support any sort of rule change or adjustment to accommodate them. they are already allowed to be run and with enough support we can build inter-series championships. the time delta to the Hoosiers is nothing but a data point. it's not large enough to make sharing the track unsafe, but is significant enough to separate those who want to run lower cost cars and those who want to win in the current system.

And I think that is a good thing.

The attraction to the 200TW tires, when voluntary, is mostly to those who want the fun of racing, but don't have the time, energy, money, or desire to develop the car to the degree necessary to win in top IT fields, carry 3-4 sets of tires, etc... this means that those who elect to run such tires will largely be those who are ok with leaving a few HP on the table from that super custom headers and the like, who show up to have fun, and will be rewarded by running a group of like minded racers.

 

[Ron Earp]

The answer I support will NOT include weight penalties or breaks. Street tires are NOT being looked at to become the law of the land in IT, and I see NO reason to support any sort of rule change or adjustment to accommodate them.

This is good to hear. The original requests started out as "can we get a place to run in the SCCA for Chump cars" and then within hours or days started to evolve into trying to achieve parity for IT cars on race tires and 200TW tires. That should never be a goal of this exercise and if the Chump folks that want to come try the SCCA are going to push it then we should stop now. We'll never be able to properly balance multimarque IT-racing if we pile the additional challenge of different tires and weight compensations into the mix.

 

[autoxmike]

The answer I support will NOT include weight penalties or breaks. Street tires are NOT being looked at to become the law of the land in IT, and I see NO reason to support any sort of rule change or adjustment to accommodate them. they are already allowed to be run and with enough support we can build inter-series championships. the time delta to the Hoosiers is nothing but a data point. it's not large enough to make sharing the track unsafe, but is significant enough to separate those who want to run lower cost cars and those who want to win in the current system.

And I think that is a good thing.

The attraction to the 200TW tires, when voluntary, is mostly to those who want the fun of racing, but don't have the time, energy, money, or desire to develop the car to the degree necessary to win in top IT fields, carry 3-4 sets of tires, etc... this means that those who elect to run such tires will largely be those who are ok with leaving a few HP on the table from that super custom headers and the like, who show up to have fun, and will be rewarded by running a group of like minded racers.

I'm good with this. From a "the worlds revolves around me" perspective" it would be nice like if Street Tires be allowed to run any rim width. The reasons this is appealing is:

1) I can leagally run my 15X8 LeChump wheels & tires on the used IT car that I will buy soon. HOnestly I will run them anyway any hopefully no one will get to butt-hurt about "Cheating" by running street tires on slightly wider wheels.

2) It does throw a minor performance bone to the folks that want to run street tires. FWIW new 13lb 15x8 wheels can be had for ~$100/wheel.

I would be shocked if a street tires car on slightly wider wheels still wasn't approcaibly slower than when running Hoosiers

 

[JeffYoung]

I think the present ITAC has its head screwed on straight and will give these guys a place to run but won't recommend changing the rules to give weight breaks, etc.

I'm all for the "place to run/let them try SCCA racing" fix.

One quick response to Tom: IF you made these the only tires you could run in IT, I can almost guarantee you the cost savings evaporate. People will shave, they will throw them away faster and the manufacturers will compete to make stickier, and shorter lasting compounds.

It's happened every time in every other series that tried something similar and it will happen here as well.

 

[JeffYoung]

I'm good with this. From a "the worlds revolves around me" perspective" it would be nice like if Street Tires be allowed to run any rim width. The reasons this is appealing is:

1) I can leagally run my 15X8 LeChump wheels & tires on the used IT car that I will buy soon. HOnestly I will run them anyway any hopefully no one will get to butt-hurt about "Cheating" by running street tires on slightly wider wheels.

2) It does throw a minor performance bone to the folks that want to run street tires. FWIW new 13lb 15x8 wheels can be had for ~$100/wheel.

I owuld be shocked if a street tires car on slightly wider wheels still wasn't approcaibly slower than when running Hoosiers

I'm sorry, but no. This is the definition of slippery slope. We make one accomodation for street tires and there will be immediate requests to do more.

 

[autoxmike]

I'm sorry, but no. This is the definition of slippery slope. We make one accomodation for street tires and there will be immediate requests to do more.

It's only a slippery slope if you choose to put on the ski's

 

[JeffYoung]

Mike, seriously, you're a good dude, but its ALWAYS a slippery slope with rules changes in a race series. Always. You've got enough autox experience to know how that works. You make one allowance that one group of cars get and the others don't and the next thing you know BOTH sides are asking for more.

What gets missed in a lot of this discussion is that the primary attractiveness of IT over the years has been stability. Rules stability. We had a lot of upheaval, necessary in my view, over the last few years and now we need some stability for a LONG time in my view.

 

[seckerich]

We had a lot of upheaval, necessary in my view, over the last few years and now we need some stability for a LONG time in my view

Best quote in years!!

 

[Ron Earp]

1) I can leagally run my 15X8 LeChump wheels & tires on the used IT car that I will buy soon. HOnestly I will run them anyway any hopefully no one will get to butt-hurt about "Cheating" by running street tires on slightly wider wheels.

2) It does throw a minor performance bone to the folks that want to run street tires. FWIW new 13lb 15x8 wheels can be had for ~$100/wheel.

Nobody is going to be "butt-hurt" over you running a wider wheel than legal. Until you start beating people, and frankly I don't think that will be happening on street tires.

What wheel pattern are you running? There are lots of 15x7s out there for $100 a wheel and less. If you happen to have the 114.3 x 5 the world is your oyster - there are light (14 lb) stock V6 Mustang wheels all over the place that can be had for free. If it is the Miata pattern then you can buy used Miata wheels all day long for well under $100 each, lightweight racey wheels too!

 

[mossaidis]

Nobody is going to be "butt-hurt" over you running a wider wheel than legal. Until you start beating people, and frankly I don't think that will be happening on street tires.

What wheel pattern are you running? There are lots of 15x7s out there for $100 a wheel and less. If you happen to have the 114.3 x 5 the world is your oyster - there are light (14 lb) stock V6 Mustang wheels all over the place that can be had for free. If it is the Miata pattern then you can buy used Miata wheels all day long for well under $100 each, lightweight racey wheels too!

I completely agree here.

 

[Chip42]

Nobody is going to be "butt-hurt" over you running a wider wheel than legal. Until you start beating people...

This, but also, we can make a SINGLE exception within the inter-series race within a race construct and NOT the IT rules as in the GCR, to allow larger width and diameter wheels so long as the tire section width is maintained at or below some prescribed, per-class maximum. we've discussed this already.

 

[quadzjr]

Just something that I think that I need to address/ask.

I have heard often people on the ITAC say that the big attraction to IT is rules stability. Now that I am an IT racer I do like rules stability, however when I was deciding on what car to build This idea never came up. I assisted my closest racing friend with his ITA, ITS, and FP Hondas (The FP car being the most fun to drive and actually the most reliable for the most part.)

What attracted me to IT was at the time the current class sizes and the idea of cheaper racing. Touring and SS at the time required new cars so that is a big hit just for the car before you start tinkering. Prod Prep level 1 was out of my price range and prep level 2 (later Limited prep I believe) was cheaper but I saw there were still getting dominated at regional and national by older Level 1 prep cars (at the time).

I went to IT because it allowed the cheapest way into racing, community is good, class sizes were good, and alot of options. It wasn't till after I was a racer that I realized the rules and stability (for better or worse). I remember When the RX-8 was classed and steve E. did a lot more than should be required to try to get the car classed correctly and seemed to but his head against the wall for the longest time. I talked people on each governing board (BOD, CRB, and 3 different chairs on the ITAC) to try to correct, in theory, simple problem with my car.
I stay racing IT because I like the people and I was not a fan of national racing, and I like the idea that the rules are stable. I dislike the politics and the still a little sour over the effort I had to go through to fix a car compared to other cars that were fixed.

I guess it depends on the definition of attraction. For me attraction was what got me started in IT. At least for me it had nothing to do with stability. However, now that I am a member I think stability is a good thing. Though I think Stagnant is a bad thing and a perfect way to also kill a class. This may be different for you, but at least for the younger crowd that I come from that is what I was looking at. I did not dig up history, or go ask what other IT racers, etc..

 

[Knestis]

I don't think anyone ever said that 200s are "almost as good as Hoosiers," in the sense that they would be competitive head-to-head. That's why I prefaced my question to Raymond with the qualifier that I don't think the difference is even germane to the conversation about the role "street tires" might play in all of this...

I do think that the popular opinion has been that they don't suck so much - qualitatively - that they would be simply awful to use on an IT car. That's a sidebar to the other conversation(s) about entry-level racing, integration of LeChump, and other big topics.

Trying to fold street tires into the existing nationwide IT rule set is a HORRIBLE idea. It shouldn't even be considered. Re: the ITAC "making a place for these guys a place to run," they SHOULD DO NOTHING.

It's already allowed to run them. People who want to do so can. Viola! Place to play offered. Under certain circumstances I might do it today - low-powered car, enduros, multipurpose racer not optimized for pointy-end IT running (a la Pablo I)...

If someone wants to start a class-within-a-class or do a gentleman's agreement or whatever, that should happen at the regional level. The ITAC should monitor such efforts with interest but should not have any official role in decisions or plans.

K

 

[seckerich]

When I started out we had a set of Toyo's for track time, intermediate rain, etc. Then we had a set of Hoosiers for the important stuff. In the ECR series we all ran Toyo just for longevity. That has not changed, and the Rival seems to be a good tire for that. Mount a set and come play.

 

[RSTPerformance]

Hummm.... Caught up on some sleep!!!

Some points to make from all the discussions... Comparing my brother on race tires and Me on street tires is like comparing a field of SM cars with generally equal drivers, all is basically equal. It's good data but you can easily miss something... in IT, not all is equal. The cars are drastically different as are the drivers. You can easily make performance modifications with the savings from running street tires your first couple years that will easily gain you more time than tires. For example a FWD car should choose a diff LONG before tires if you race at NHMS.

Stephens fast lap times were faster than the car that won the ITR race and the overall winner (way to fast lap record breaking ITS car). I think he had the third fastest lap... And it was an average field of 8 ITR cars and 30 something other cars. My fast lap times would have put me in the hunt for a 5th place finish in the class (5th place normal mid to front pack car turned a lap time about .2seconds faster than me). My point is that In a more "rounded" class I could have easily competed mid pack in class (you have to admit in the northeast most ITR cars are well built front runners)

No SCCA shouldn't change the rules, it would turn away some drivers who wouldn't ever think of racing on non-race tires... To some it's like running mufflers

Yes- people should not be afraid to run on street tires... It is just as much fun and you can do other mods to improve your car or you driving to still be able to compete mid pack. Once you reach that point get the sticky stuff and see what you can do but realize you might not go back!

Yes- SCCA should have a group built into at least some weekends that includes crossover cars and IT type cars ALL on street tires. It's an opportunity for newbies to affordably race for the front against new friends and others to double dip on a budget.

Yes- EVERY top dog racer should have some Dunlops for an intermediate tire and enduros!

Raymond "hope this adds more good value/points to the discussion" Blethen

 

[adamjabaay]

great conversation guys

making me really think of going to 15x7's and rivals next year

the used tire market with 14'' stuff is tough to come by

 

[JLawton]

I don't think anyone ever said that 200s are "almost as good as Hoosiers," in the sense that they would be competitive head-to-head. That's why I prefaced my question to Raymond with the qualifier that I don't think the difference is even germane to the conversation about the role "street tires" might play in all of this...

I do think that the popular opinion has been that they don't suck so much - qualitatively - that they would be simply awful to use on an IT car. That's a sidebar to the other conversation(s) about entry-level racing, integration of LeChump, and other big topics.

Trying to fold street tires into the existing nationwide IT rule set is a HORRIBLE idea. It shouldn't even be considered. Re: the ITAC "making a place for these guys a place to run," they SHOULD DO NOTHING.

It's already allowed to run them. People who want to do so can. Viola! Place to play offered. Under certain circumstances I might do it today - low-powered car, enduros, multipurpose racer not optimized for pointy-end IT running (a la Pablo I)...

If someone wants to start a class-within-a-class or do a gentleman's agreement or whatever, that should happen at the regional level. The ITAC should monitor such efforts with interest but should not have any official role in decisions or plans.

K

Yes!!!!

There shouldnt be rules changes to accomodate street tires......... If there is a 3 second difference at Watkins Glen between 200's and Hoosiers, that's awesome in my eyes. In most IT class you may not be running in the top half, but you will be racing!!! (and being off by 3 seconds at WGI and 1 second at Lime Rock will not make you last in any IT class.) Don't use the excuse you can't afford Hoosiers so the rules should be changed. Run 200's and go have fun!!! Do NOT use tire expense as an excuse as to why you can't race.............

You wanna be competitive?? It's gonna be more than just an expensive tire bill to make you a regional champion in most regions. Ask any of the guys who have won championships how much money they spent on developement, testing, dyno time, etc.

Racing is an expensive sport. There is no getting around that but it can be done very inexpensively. I think my first season with my old GTi, running on Kumho's, i spent a total for the season (tires, motel, entry fees, repairs) about $5,500.

I would love to cut my tire bill by 75%. I'm all for giving Chump cars a place to play. I'm all for guys running 200's......................... but changing the rules to make them more competitive??? Nooooooooooooooooo. You wanna run up front you gotta drop the coin!!!