Street tires in IT??

Somewhat interesting how many times we hear about IT racecars not being cool enough with Lexan windows, more mods, or whatever from the younger generation. How cool will they think it would be to run on street tires? I agree from the budget stand point but those other items often mentioned are contrary to that as well.
 
Flying lizard!!!!!!! That's his name.
I'm not pulling the I walked to school in 12" of snow bullshit you refer to....ALL I'm saying is its difficult enough to maintain a level field in IT as it is...there is no national rule set. Plus IT is NOT recognized by national.
So....you want help getting a street tire class? Then maybe you should also help get IT classes get recognized by national first. How about a Proposed set of standard rules? And along with it a NEW street tire only IT class. Don't reinvent the wheel, just repackage it with some bling. Until you go to corporate as "king" I don't think they want to deal with the problem, emerging market....greying club.
 
I think you are confusing the restriction on IT being a regional only category with the rule set. IT is defined in the GCR for the entire club with ITC, ITB, ITA, ITS and ITR clearly delineated including spec lines for the cars in each class.

1stgen said:
Flying lizard!!!!!!! That's his name.
I'm not pulling the I walked to school in 12" of snow bullshit you refer to....ALL I'm saying is its difficult enough to maintain a level field in IT as it is...there is no national rule set. Plus IT is NOT recognized by national.
So....you want help getting a street tire class? Then maybe you should also help get IT classes get recognized by national first. How about a Proposed set of standard rules? And along with it a NEW street tire only IT class. Don't reinvent the wheel, just repackage it with some bling. Until you go to corporate as "king" I don't think they want to deal with the problem, emerging market....greying club.
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I've been in the class since the original "national" ITCS was published as a little paperback book. The only way we could have kept the class in stasis would have been to never add any new cars to the eligibility list. And as soon as it got popular and competition heated up, costs were destined to increase. Any rose-colored visor ideas about a simpler time when IT cars cost $1000 is possible only from a place where nobody tried very hard - like where I was racing in the northwest at the time.

And when you start listing "everything that morphed IT into a mess," Phil, make sure you include "cheaters who implicitly colluded to shift the performance envelope of entire classes," "rapid advances in OE street car performance at any price point," "increasing cost of automobiles in CPI-corrected dollars," "federal auto safety mandates," and all of the rest. Blaming the "death of IT as we knew it" on trifles like open ECUs ignores the bigger influences that really matter.

Mike needs to remember that, as Chumpcar has demonstrated, rules will NOT limit costs, even on street tires.

K

PS - All that said, how about a class that would allow us to race commonly-available, recently-produced automobiles in as near the legal, street-driven form of those automobiles as is practically and safely possible under racing circumstances?" That sounds good. It's called Touring. Can't do much of anything to those cars so they must be super-cheap, right...?
 
Peter Olivola said:
I think you are confusing the restriction on IT being a regional only category with the rule set. IT is defined in the GCR for the entire club with ITC, ITB, ITA, ITS and ITR clearly delineated including spec lines for the cars in each class.
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????? When there are IT cars at national races and runoffs then it will be a recognized series. Other than in STL.....
 
As I said, you're confusing things. IT is a national rule set. As for running in National/Majors events, be careful what you wish for. It would also be worth your while to find out what the entire IT community thinks about becoming Runoffs eligible.

1stgen said:
????? When there are IT cars at national races and runoffs then it will be a recognized series. Other than in STL.....
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Knestis said:
PS - All that said, how about a class that would allow us to race commonly-available, recently-produced automobiles in as near the legal, street-driven form of those automobiles as is practically and safely possible under racing circumstances?" That sounds good. It's called Touring. Can't do much of anything to those cars so they must be super-cheap, right...?
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I see what you did there ;)
 
Peter Olivola said:
As I said, you're confusing things. IT is a national rule set. As for running in National/Majors events, be careful what you wish for. It would also be worth your while to find out what the entire IT community thinks about becoming Runoffs eligible.
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I'm pretty sure most everyone would like to see IT go national???
That's what STL was developed for, a place for IT cars to go because there not eligible for national. Why wouldn't you want to be eligible to run nationàl or regionals?
 
1stgen said:
I'm not pulling the I walked to school in 12" of snow bullshit you refer to....
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No, you kinda are saying that...
1stgen said:
...... I had no place to run my 1.8t swapped VW...but I didn't run around saying they should make a class so I could compete.
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...there is no national rule set. Plus IT is NOT recognized by national.
So....you want help getting a street tire class? Then maybe you should also help get IT classes get recognized by national first. How about a Proposed set of standard rules? .
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Where have you been???
For a bunch of years now, IT has been in the GCR, as a National Rule set. ANYwhere you run an ITA car, for example, it has to weigh the same, and has the same allowances. Kirk and I were on the Advisory Committee, and we took part in conference calls monthly that were hosted by the SCCA National phone system/office.

IT, along with other Nationally recognized classes doesn't compete at the Runoffs, but that has no bearing on it's "national" status.


This is a classic case of technology creep. Rule was written back in the day that allowed "DOT" approved tires. I'm sure the PTB at the time figured that was a great way to make the classes run on street tires.

Then somebody at a tire company said, "Hmmmm, being "DOT" doesn't mean it can't REALLY corner, and be made of magic gravity defying compounds, does it, heh heh heh..."
And, mere months later, 1/3 or the field is on what are essentially race compound tires.
I'm not even sure the ITAC existed back then...I think IT was guided by the CRB, who had a LOT to look after, so categories like IT didn't get much of their time. Well, in any case. whoever was in charge didn't notice the change until the horse was out of the barn.

Phil, the Genie is really tough to cram back in the bottle. As Kirk says, the ONLY way to freeze the rules is to freeze time.
 
Most everyone? How do you know that?

I think you might want to query the ST committee and CRB about why the category and STL class were created.

1stgen said:
I'm pretty sure most everyone would like to see IT go national???
That's what STL was developed for, a place for IT cars to go because there not eligible for national. Why wouldn't you want to be eligible to run nationàl or regionals?
Click to expand...
 
1stgen said:
I'm pretty sure most everyone would like to see IT go national???
That's what STL was developed for, a place for IT cars to go because there not eligible for national. Why wouldn't you want to be eligible to run nationàl or regionals?
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FOr those who haven't been reading this board for a good period, there have been several informal polls run here about the very subject.

it's reasonable to say that it's a hotly debated subject among the responders, and it's safe to say that this board really only reflects a small portion of the IT racers actually competing.

That said, the general trend in the polls has been one of greater acceptance to the "national" agenda.

But, there are a ton of contributing issues that cloud their answers such as:
-What will the National ?Regional landscape look like in 5 years???
-Will 'going National" ruin Regional car counts?
-Will going National make the class cost more?
-How will the system used to decide which classes go work?

And on and on.

The last poll run here, about 4(?) years ago indicated that a slight majority of IT drivers would have desired that the classes be Runoffs eligible.

Also at roughly that time, the SCCA national office was exploring such concepts and a Super Committee was formed to create a set of suggestions and "Make IT Runoffs eligible" was one of them.

The CRB informally polled the ITAC, but I'm not sure how onboard the CRB was with the concept.

In any case, it never happened. Peter Keane (then of the CRB) was a strong proponent of the concept, and he decided STL was a solution that fit his needs/vision, and here we are.
 
Your right, here were are.....but I still think that going national is the answer. Then you are open to having new street tire only regional classes.
 
1stgen said:
Your right, here were are.....but I still think that going national is the answer. Then you are open to having new street tire only regional classes.
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1 - not happening. the CRB's been pretty clear about this in recent past. all things are possible but IT is for regional championships only for the foreseeable future.

2 - we don't need more classes. we've discussed street tire options. they are easy to start within the existing framework of classes. IF and WHEN they take off, we have reason and ammunition to discuss rules changes up to and including adding new classes. it's not even worth discussing until we have the numbers to support it.
 
lateapex911 said:
...The last poll run here, about 4(?) years ago indicated that a slight majority of IT drivers would have desired that the classes be Runoffs eligible, and a huge pile of drivers in existing National classes were scared shitless about the prospect of having one of the most popular categories in Club Racing swipe their golden ticket to the RubOffs.

Also at roughly that time, the SCCA national office was exploring such concepts and a Super Committee was formed to create a set of suggestions and "Make IT Runoffs eligible" was one of them.

The CRB informally polled the ITAC, but I'm not sure how onboard the CRB was with the concept.

In any case, it never happened. Peter Keane (then of the CRB) was a strong proponent of the concept, and he decided STL was a solution that fit his needs/vision, and here we are.
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"Fixed that for you," as they say...

All of that proves that when someone is willing to grease the skids, things can happen - creating new National classes out of thin air, ignoring the pesky participation eligibility requirement, etc., etc., etc.

K
 
Knestis said:
"Fixed that for you," as they say...

All of that proves that when someone is willing to grease the skids, things can happen - creating new National classes out of thin air, ignoring the pesky participation eligibility requirement, etc., etc., etc.

K
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Yea, i was trying to be "gentile" about it.

But yes, I have little faith that the people who decided did so for altruistic reasons.

Not to say that SOME of our people in positions of power aren't straight shooters and unbiased, like Dick Patullo, but, ten years from now, when he's out of office, and has had a few beers, I bet we can get even him to admit that all of the cigar smokers behind the closed doors don't share the same standards.

Whatever, it's water thats long ago flowed under the bridge, and we all get the reality we tolerate. Besides, going over it again will incite responses like "crybaby" etc from certain ST adhoc members, ;)
 
If you guys were at convention you would have heard SCCA has a statute of limitations on bitching. If it happened five years ago or more get over, everyone that made that decision is gone.
 
dickita15 said:
If you guys were at convention you would have heard SCCA has a statute of limitations on bitching. If it happened five years ago or more get over, everyone that made that decision is gone.
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If they didn't have the convention out in the desert where racers aren't maybe some SCCA members would have heard that...:)
 
dickita15 said:
If you guys were at convention you would have heard SCCA has a statute of limitations on bitching. If it happened five years ago or more get over, everyone that made that decision is gone.
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Don't get me started about Doug Reed. :happy204:

K

EDIT - More seriously, the players turn over but the culture stays the same.
 
and remember......

IT got national recognition when:
1/ got ridiculously popular in 2 years
2/National realized it was a logical place for "old" Showroom Stock cars which aged out and in only 4 years became pretty much worthless.

Slightly ironic that a class that was to be the graveyard of another, is now having one prepared for it!
 
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