The Current State of Improved Touring

One more thought in response to what Matt Green said, because I completely agree with him. If you look back to the last few pages of this thread, you'll notice that there seems to be a general consensus that younger people aren't joining the club and that's a problem. The comments then go on to characterize kids today as obsessed with instant gratification, uninterested in cars, etc.

I would argue that anyone who is seriously interested in joining a sport like racing doesn't have those characteristics, regardless of age. If I were reading through the forums trying to figure out if IT was right for me and found these comments, I'd run the other way. Maybe part of what needs to happen is the membership needs to change how they view the younger generation?
 
EMRA was a great sandbox!

Around 1975 I had a hot street Sprite with a roll-bar in it. I had been an avid autocrosser and PHA hill climber in my early twenties, but when SCCA raised the bar on roll-bars (pun unintended) in 71 and we needed tires, the cost forced me to give up.
Then I heard about EMRA and time-trials at Bridgehampton (from Harry Schneider's son). I attended, drove on a full road course, and was hooked!
they said "all you need is a diagonal brace, fire extinguisher, and a kill switch, and you could enter races after you're licensed."
I was there for the next race and school (EMRA has a school at every event, how nice!).
For two years I went to almost every event until I realized I needed a bigger pond.
Then came SCCA.
Without EMRA I would never have gotten here.
There is a lesson here. I was young, avidly followed racing, and had little or no money, but EMRA gave me a vehicle. (pun intended)

And regarding EMRA person pissing on paved paddock-I find that extraordinary. The only paved paddock was a strip behind false grid and a 20' pad behind that for scaling that I always tried to occupy, both front and center/highly visible. The EMRA I knew would never accept that behavior, and, since we used SCCA rules, easily addressed if someone objected.
(unless, of course, this happened late saturday night after the beer party; the culture was a little different 40 years ago)

EDIT: PS: there were many great people in EMRA and some are still my friends. There was very little enmity or elitism there and a great sense of camaraderie, a spirit that if all cooperated in this enterprise, we could do what was not individually possible.
 
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I started spectating road racing events in the mid-80's, but I did not personally know anyone who actually raced, nor did I have the disposable income to spend on the hobby, until I met a guy named Chuck Early at the company where we worked in Ft. Lauderdale back in 2001. He had been racing for 25 years, so he walked me through finding a race car, getting it legal and through Tech, my Driver's Schools, and my start in SCCA racing in general. Meeting Chuck happened at the opportune time for me. I finally had some $$ to throw at it, and his knowledge and incouragement was the push I needed. I was by no means young, though, 42 years old, I think. If I had tried to start racing on my own with no help, it would have seemed intimidating.
 
I think there are plenty of young people interested in cars and racing. I have not attended an Import Alliance event, but they have had a couple here in Nashville, and I heard that something like 3,000 cars showed up for the 2-3 day event. A lot of these guys are dropping serious $$$ on these cars, but for most of them (I'm guessing), the car is their daily driver. Their only opportunity to race would be with the daily driver hot rod, because they don't have any more money to spend on a race car, and they are not going to strip a bunch of go-fast goodies and turbos off their street cars to make them legal to race with SCCA. I think the biggest obstacle to attracting a substantial number of young people to the SCCA is that they don't make enough money yet to have the extra they will need for a very expensive hobby. I think when you are talking about getting new people into the club, it's going to be guys (and girls) in their 30's or older, for the most part.
 
I would not say they don't have the money to do it, it is they don't want to have a race only car. Once the cage goes in the car is not really ideal for the street, also the decal get look from the the friendly officers quickly.
Some of them also don't want to chance wrecking there cars.

It all comes down to your drug of choose.
 
Cluelessmale said:
I would not say they don't have the money to do it, it is they don't want to have a race only car. Once the cage goes in the car is not really ideal for the street, also the decal get look from the the friendly officers quickly.

Some of them also don't want to chance wrecking there cars.
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Pffft! I drove my Showroom Stock car in full regalia and rollcage for years as my only car. Hell, I drove it twice to Road Atlanta for the SCCA Runoffs with tires and a jack stuffed in the back. Uphill, both ways, too.

If you want it, you'll do it.

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Phil, you are describing The Bridge. From a previous conversation with Dave, IIRC he is talking about an event at The Glen. And the smoker was the inimitable Bob Hill, who doubtlessly asked for a cigarette when he arrived at the Pearly Gates a few years ago.
 
Kahl23 said:
Jake, I agree to a point.

Try to put yourself in the mindset of someone who is just starting out. You don't know if you actually will enjoy the experience of racing, you just know that it sounds intriguing. With the SCCA, the only way to "test the waters" is to buy, build or rent a car and go to school. All of those options cost at least four figures, which is a lot of money to spend for something that you might try and hate. Contrast this with NASA, BMWCCA, etc., where you can spend a few hundred bucks and get a day on track with your car with an instructor teaching you. Which option would you choose?

I think that there are certainly people who like the looser rule sets because it allows cheating. However, I think that especially for people who are just starting out, it appeals because it's less intimidating. Again, thinking like someone new to the world, how daunting would it be to be handed the GCR and told "good luck"?

The looser rulesets certainly encourage cheating and I am not advocating a switch to something like that at all. Personally, one of the reasons I chose the SCCA is because I was told it was the most serious club racing out there. What I am saying is that the SCCA needs to find a way to ease people into the world of racing. Run what you've brung is the gateway drug of the racing world and right now the only thing the SCCA is selling is the hardcore stuff.
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good points here - but I do want to remind everyone that SCCA solo is damn near free and can be run in just about any jalopy you happen to own/borrow/rent/steal/build/wake up in. AutoX is one of if not THE lowest barrier to entry motorsports activities in the world. again - we don't advertise ourselves well, we aren't always welcoming, and we have a grumpy old man reputation and occasionally that's true, but AX tends to be a younger, more excited crowd who tend to have a lot of fun. it is "supposed" to be the gateway to SCCA, and for many is the destination. we do not have a national-level time trials program established and that is a real shame. we have started some PDX, SCCA for "HPDE" but they aren't well subscribed, nor well advertised, and often are held exclusive of race weekends by a very different core group of people.

so yeah, we have issues as a club well before we have issues in IT specifically.

and yes, I think I and some others may have been overly harsh on the kids, and I think Matt makes a great point about taking some kids (or hell, grown ups, just new members) under your wing and helping to motivate and guide them in SCCA. it's hard, we all have very busy lives and it can seem like a huge undertaking, but it's worth it.

if we can convince the club and the regions to make the organization more navigable that would really help, too. there's a lot of personalities and politics involved in that, though.
 
I too drove my racecar to the track for my first year of racing, and to this day, it was the best year I had. While I drove it TO every race, twice I had to find other means of getting it, and me, home. I managed.
In my first event/school a guy made a mistake on the banking at Pocono, and I was the lucky guy in the wrong place. My front right tire dented my roof. With the strut attached. They signed my license though! Borrowed a trailer to drag the hulk home.

Got another body, transferred the stuff and was at my first real race 2 weekends later. Freshly painted and all.

I loaded me and my GF and a tent, a jack, and all the tools I could cram in and thats how we rolled that summer. Couldn't put more than 7 gallons in the tank, because the car rode too low and rubbed the tires. The RACE rubber tires...which I drove to 7 different events on.

At the Glen, (The longest drive by far) the motor done blown up. Rented a car to get home, then the next weekend rented a bumper hitch and 'borrowed' the work van. Bossman says, "You're not towing your car to Watkins Glen with the van are you????". No siree, sir, I am certainly NOT towing to the Glen. From the Glen? hells yea, LOL. It was a shaky run home. Made it fine though. Had to put new brakes on the van, though (shhh)

Last event was at Lime Rock. My Mom came up to watch, her first (and last) race ever. Poor GF had to hold her hand the entire day, LOL.
Finished in the trophys in a 20 car ITA field, against Kurt Weiss and Chuck Noonan. (Some may recognize those names. Kurt held the LRP lap record, and was the CRB chair for the SCCA) I was pretty proud of that accomplishment...the ONLY car driven there, (In ITA) and on tires that had an easy 3000 street miles on them and 2 schools, 7 races, and a test day on them. Beat a Corvair too!

So, yea, if you really want to race, you can do it.
 
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After I got tired of driving it to the track, I upgraded to a tow dolly behing a 4 cyl Jeep Wrangler. Damn some of those hills near Lime Rock are huge!

Rob and Phil, the big point I was making between EMRA and SCCA (and several other clubs compared to SCCA) is the difference in professionalism. I felt like others were fun, but SCCA was "the real deal" at least in the North East. I know many younger people won't look at this but even consider corner workers. SCCA has multiple in each station. Many other clubs? Hopefully one who may or may not have training.

A real eye opener for me was watching a car go off track, hit a tree, and it took a Loooooong time for anyone to reach the car (at LRP). I was tempted to jump the damn fence myself.
 
I think we need to understand that we can't be EVERYTHING to EVERYONE. I don't think be can we the casual, laid back type of atmosphere yet be the most competitive non pro racing venue. I like being part of the SCCA because everyone takes it serious, from a competitive stand point as well as safety. I like that there is a strict rule set.

On the New England Region website I am listed as the "New Driver Ambassador" (what ever the hell that means) with my contact info. I only get contacted maybe 6 times a year?? And I go out of my way to walk people through the process, answer all their questions and connect them to people who can help them with stuff I can't and BEG them to contact me if they have further questions or problems............... So the help is out there, people unfortunately arent taking advantage of it.........

I don't know if there is a silver bullet for this......

Edit: I hate to sound like the "old guy" but having two teenagers I think it makes me some what of an expert.......... but I also don't think the younger generation (in general) is willing to put in the effort to get out there. When I started I had no money, no experience and knew no one who raced. I had to bust my ass to get started. Very few youngsters have rich parents that will hand this experience to them on a silver platter. If you want it bad enough you'll make it happen.
 
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Jeff – I’m almost surprised you get contacted that often from the NER website. If I’m new and go to 90% of the regions sites (at least the numerous ones I’ve seen), it’s doesn’t make it easy for the new person to figure things out.

I first went to see how you are listed and went to Regional Contacts. Nope, not there. Instead you’re on the Club Racing Board. I didn’t expect to fine information about how to get into racing on that page.

Then you are simply listed on the page in a column of many other names with s title of New Driver Ambassador. Okay, what’s that says new person.

Want to volunteer? The volunteer page talks about the different duties but I didn’t see who I actually can contact about it.
Sure, people can dig through the site but maybe they were really initially trying to get an idea of what’s involved – looking for that bait. Overall regions are not making it easy. I am not picking on the NER website, but you had me curious if anything had changed and know from looking at many others they are in a similar position. Before I get the “why not make suggestions to them” – I have. I recognize it’s run by volunteers yet since we’re looking for solutions, I believe this is one of the many.

The process of getting information and getting started is too hard! Jeff mentions that many younger people are not willing to make the effort to get out there but we're certainly not helping matters.
 
We most certainly are not. Several of the HPDE groups that I instruct with send the registrant an entire package with all the things they need to know for the day. They then give the registrant a package that has all of that information again when they show up at the track. The best I saw was a checklist that included everything from basic car prep steps through bringing food and water with you to who to see at the track and what you would be doing when. Many of them even make their home pages simple - "Press this button to be on track with us!" and the rest happens by FM*. Conversely, I've seen some groups where I can't figure out what is going on with their web site (Hooked On Driving, I'm looking at you.).

We need to make it simple. Jeff's "New Driver Ambassador" information needs to be front and center, for example. The class reps need to identify the newbies and do a little hand holding. I've done it more than once at a WDCR event, answering questions that are simple to me but can be overwhelming to a beginner.






*effing magic. It's a technical term. Sorry if I'm speaking over people's heads.
 
Wreckerboy said:
I've done it more than once at a WDCR event, answering questions that are simple to me but can be overwhelming to a beginner.
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And yet, when I ask you how your little Barbie's dream car can turn laps faster than my Nismo-truck-powered son-of-Godzilla, you just shrug your shoulders and smile...

...that's just wrong, man.
 
I think we can agree that this stuff is cyclical.


  1. SCCA starts way-back-when and it's casual and fun. There are not many other organizations
  2. SCCA grows and becomes more and more popular
  3. More popular = more money
  4. More money = more competition
  5. More competition = tighter regulations, safety and racing
  6. Tighter R, S and R = means barriers to entry are higher and a less casual and 'fun' atmosphere is available
  7. Barriers and more fun needed means other casual and fun clubs pop up to fill a need
  8. New clubs go to #2 if they are successful
FWIW, the 2013 NASA Championships just happened and the following cars showed up in PT:

PTB: 3
PTC: 5
PTD: 10
PTE: 7

'Casual and fun' or 'Popular and successful'?
 
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Andy Bettencourt said:
FWIW, the 2013 NASA Championships just happened and the following cars showed up in PT:

PTB: 3
PTC: 5
PTD: 10
PTE: 7

'Casual and fun' or 'Popular and successful'?
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At least PT was invited to the NASA Championship. IT has no National Championship. The closest thing to a SCCA IT Championship is a SARRC/NARRC series win. And the SARRC/NARRC championship numbers are about the same as those PT participation numbers.
 
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