The Current State of Improved Touring

Ron Earp said:
At least PT was invited to the NASA Championship. IT has no National Championship. The closest thing to a SCCA IT Championship is a SARRC/NARRC series win. And the SARRC/NARRC championship numbers are about the same as those PT participation numbers.
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Apples and oranges. My point is that I have yet to see any real data that PT is putting a visible dent in SCCA's entries.

And the point also is that there is a place for NASA's PT under the 'more casual, more 'fun'' scenario. Once it becomes really popular, money and restrictions will come.
 
If I were to look at PTs numbers, I'd be more curious about participation in NASA's regular events. That's at least assuming we're talking about a place that's more affordable or perceived easier to get in. Maybe it's doing better where people are local to events? I have to imagine the stats are accessible.
 
NASA TT and the PDX are doing very well. The racer group is small( 60 ish here in FL). The cost is 1.5 - 2X SCCA prices. It is much harder to get a NASA comp license than it is SCCA license.

Summery; NASA cost more and less accessible than SCCA.
There are very few lower class PT cars, maybe no ITB or ITC level cars. Most are BMW, E 30- 36, Miata Vetts. ITS level and faster .
The TT group is big and growing. The rules are loose with lots of street- track cars running.

MM, severly ADD, and yeah I flunked English in my Engineering school. A product of Rochester NY gifted education. yeah I will change my sig when I get time. :)
 
The car counts for PT racing in the Mid Atlantic is tiny compared to the IT car counts.

However I don't know what the 5-10 year trends are. I know that locally, here in DC, we are a little down from the boom days of the late '90s and mid '00s but general economic conditions are more likely the culprit. What I don't know at all is if the PT classes have been growing.

In any activity trend is at least as important as the current state.

Once again I must point out that much of the appeal of IT is the LACK of a national championship and national level racing. There are plenty of other classes for that. I don't want to compete with national level budgets and talent at this point in my "career".
 
Andy Bettencourt said:
I submit you have been lucky thus far. :)
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I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude, but I have no idea what you mean by this. Is it a sarcastic comment or a comment specifically referencing some particular racer in my region?

I really do not know. I'm sorry I've only been doing this for two years. I really enjoy the racing and the folks I race with. Yes, we've had a few "out-of-of-towners" that appear to play by their own rules, but for the most part I've found my competitors to be kind and fair people who fight like hell on the track and help each other just as much as they can in the pits.

I find the sarcasm, negativity, and vitriol on this board terribly uncomfortable and unwelcoming. I strongly believe that it does not help the sharing of information that is the purpose of this board. In fact this board is probably part of the problem.

Take a step back and imagine you are thinking about racing in IT. You've just found this board through Google. You poke around and read some threads. How would you feel about the group of folks you are considering competing and spending time with? Would you want to spend thousands to join this lot?
 
I won't speak for Andy, but I took that comment to mean that you have been mucky so far to not run into the big budget team running in IT. There are plenty of cars running with 'national level' prep and budgets. And the more you do this, the more you will find there are plenty of very talented drivers running in the IT classes. Every pocket of the country is different. One IT class may be heavily subscribed in your area while anothe class is almost dead.

The winter time on every board leads to fun discussions that would probably turn off any newb. Hopefully people coming here to check us out will take in everything and weed out the crazy (like we all do) before forming an opinion about the group as a whole. :)
 
I can't speak Andy either, except - exactly what he said.

You've been lucky in that some major league Type A type and a budget to match hasn't shown up in your neck of the woods and done the sort of 11/10ths build that many here have done and many others have watched. Somebody hasn't spent the time to do build on the level of the Earpstangs (build thread detailed in the Ford section, it's an excellent read), or tGA's old NX, or Andy Bettancourt's Miata, or Jeff's TR8, just to cite a few examples, and there are many others. Because when somebody shows up with that kind of effort in a build everybody else is going to have to up their game if they want to remain competitive.

Let me reiterate that last part for you - IF THEY WANT TO REMAIN COMPETITIVE. Nothing is forcing you to do so, nothing at all. By all means continue to drive your car as is and have fun. But you will get in all likelyhood get stomped by a 11/10ths car, all other things being equal. There is always somebody out there who wants it more and is willing to devote the resources to do so.

That's not meant to be negative, petty, or mean spirited. It's more like a basic truth of racing. There is no sarcasm directed at you here (at each other is another story, but that's how we show our love), no vitriol. I, and probably everybody else in this thread are glad you are having a good time racing amongst your friends, and in hope that continues. But all it takes is one person to ruin your party, and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. That's what he's saying.
 
With respect, Hayes, your current competitive situation is an accident of timing. Things were relatively quiet in the MARRS series in ITB this past year, frankly without a lot of competitive pressure. Wayback Machine yourself to 2011, or 2010 when Jeff Underwood set the ITB lap record - a low 1:28 - and your experience would be very different.

This is probably going to get me on the negativity and vitriol list but frankly, chasing those guys (Tristan Herbert, Dave Gran, et al.) who were banging down the sub 1:30s week after week was an example of the whole reason we race. I got substantially faster because of it.

Fighting for a win because the fast - and yes, well-funded and well-developed - entrants don't show up isn't making a very compelling argument for what the "state of IT" should be.

K
 
Spa67 said:
I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude, but I have no idea what you mean by this. Is it a sarcastic comment or a comment specifically referencing some particular racer in my region?

I really do not know. I'm sorry I've only been doing this for two years. I really enjoy the racing and the folks I race with. Yes, we've had a few "out-of-of-towners" that appear to play by their own rules, but for the most part I've found my competitors to be kind and fair people who fight like hell on the track and help each other just as much as they can in the pits.

I find the sarcasm, negativity, and vitriol on this board terribly uncomfortable and unwelcoming. I strongly believe that it does not help the sharing of information that is the purpose of this board. In fact this board is probably part of the problem.

Take a step back and imagine you are thinking about racing in IT. You've just found this board through Google. You poke around and read some threads. How would you feel about the group of folks you are considering competing and spending time with? Would you want to spend thousands to join this lot?
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So yes, the esteemed members above have articulated my comment to you. The :) should have helped you understand that, even if you didn't understand, it was not meant as a shot.

This BB can get mired in minutia, in the off season especially, but these things are usually born from legitimate rules-interpretation questions. We are lucky to have numerous members from past and current IT and ST boards who frequent this site. You only get what you want out of reading it. I have said it before and I will say it again...10X the drivers have told me that they get a ton from the rules debates than have said the site stinks. Not so much from a 'resolution' standpoint but from a 'how I should or could be' reading the rulebook.

My point on your original post? You are having fun and have a great group of racers who race hard but apparently don't have 'national' level budget...is just luck so far. Many pockets of IT across the country do have that...and it has been driven by a singular goal of one racer or the classes popularity in general. It's not IT that has you happy, it's the local scene so far...and that's ok!

If I was to take a step back and look at the BB overall, it has what it needs. Some love, some hate, but mostly a real flavor for what it's like to build, race and survive in the often not-so-glamorous and way-to-expensive hobby we call Club Racing.

:)
 
Funny thing regarding the above: at this year's ARRC, I can guarantee that the FProd winner had less money in prep, and probably in the car as a whole, than ANY of the IT winners. YMMV, but all that matters is who shows up on any given weekend. Same as it would be in any sort of racing, from pigs at the fair, to the local 5K, to any given club race.
 
I agree and I think to some degree the cynicism of some people is what is makes them think that what Hayes is experiencing is an aberration. What he's experiencing is what club racing (and hog showing and 5k runs) should be about and it is about for the most part.

It has nothing to do with IT rules or the "current state" of IT. Hayes is experiencing fair, clean racing with a nice bunch of people. I can tell you that if I wasn't experiencing that, I would not be around. I don't race to win, I race to enjoy myself.

But this has nothing to do with IT rules or IT as a category. Sure, someone can build a 10/10th car, or even an 11/10th car and run away. But that doesn't have to change the experience. So you get beat, you either up your game if you think that is fun or you continue having the same fun you have now, just 1 position lower on the results. It's only a problem if you make it one. It's only a problem if as individuals and as a group those fun people decide to let it discourage them and drive them away. It's not possible for everyone to finish first, so if that is the only way people will be happy, then people will drift away regardless. Someone will always be 5th if there are 5 cars.

Other potential problems like overaggressive drivers or drivers who people who take it too seriously and aren't able to leave the competition on the track are not an IT problem, they are a racing culture problem. Just as people who cheat or don't compete with good sportsman ship are a culture problem in any activity. There is always going to be some ahole who gets his enjoyment not by winning, but by making other people feel bad about losing. That's life and we see it in volleyball, i've seen it in golf, if I showed pigs I'm sure I'd see it there too.
 
Some random thoughts on this thread (just caught up on it).

Kirk - excellent post. Chasing the fast guys was/is the most fun I've had on track.

Jim -- excellent post. Racing with guys you like and have fun with is nearly as important.

Hayes -- welcome to IT! lol...by the way, I do agree with you to an extent about these Boards. Most of us on here know each other, pretty well, and have for a long time. We are probably too clubby and too sarcastic and we probably come off as not being a group you'd want to race with, when in fact the opposite is true. Will try to work on that, on my end.

NASA PT -- to me, sorry, but it's a joke. Mostly crossover cars, small fields, not much competition. At least in the SEDiv and MidAtlanta. I don't see anyone leaving IT for PT, and Andy is right, if it got popular, their rule set would mean HIGH dollar testing and development bills to maximize your allowed mods with points.
 
Sorta, kinda, maybe want to try PT with my ITS RX7...until I tried to understand the rules. I have no frekin clue how my car would be classified. The rules are a complete cluster f""k. And me with a mechanical engineer degree trying to assess my car. That, and fields that are way smaller than ITS make me run from them:026:
 
chuck baader said:
Sorta, kinda, maybe want to try PT with my ITS RX7...until I tried to understand the rules. I have no frekin clue how my car would be classified. The rules are a complete cluster f""k. And me with a mechanical engineer degree trying to assess my car. That, and fields that are way smaller than ITS make me run from them:026:
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yet somehow, to SOME people those rules are seen as more fair - or maybe they only like that they can do less work and be on a more even footing with those that do more. I really don't know how well they work out, and the fields aren't deep enough from what I've seen to really show it anyhow.

saw a not insignificant number of young people (younger than me) at the Rolex24, and a good number with shirts showing car stuff - "hella flush" type stuff more than "racing" but plenty of both, and many more kids whose clothing did not allow me to file them into a car category. whatever the case, they were at a sportscar race and we weren't reaching out as a club in an organized way (we did provide vans with our logo to move our flaggers around and help THEIR race happen, but the outsiders don't know that).

I spoke to one younger (roughly my age, early 30s) guy at the GRM area with a turbo'ed Miata. he runs in the local SCCA alternative AutoX club (Martin) and does track days and whatnot with various organizations. even knows our friend Mark Dana. says he used to run SCCA but every time he goes to an event there's the one guy with the handlebar mustache that makes it a PIA. this is a specific guy, not a generalization. luckily I know the guys who run the show locally and I think I know who he's talking about, so I'll try to find out if handlebar's personality can be adjusted AND I asked the guy with the Miata to give us another shot. not going to race in that car, but still a perfect club member that isn't.
 
Keyrect. PT turnouts at VIR range from near zero to 4-5 PTE cars and not much else.

The classes you mention carry the weight, and even SpecE30 is showing a down trend.

But at least SM has Cole Trickle!
 
Chip, I bet Mr Handlebar works in tech. I swear, IF SCCA Regions had any power to control it, they'd put a pretty girl in tech JUST as a 'greeter'. She could do the straightforward run of the mill stuff. (yea, I'm being sexist, here's my defense: Of the 300 racers at any given regional, MAYbe 3 are female. Of the remaining 297, MAYbe 3 have the credentials to work tech effectively. Of the 3 females, .03 have the same capability)

Or, just having a nice guy there is key. That's not to say I haven't met nice tech people. NER has upped their tech game recently, (Mssrs AMy and his Big Dick, come to mind), but Ive also been screwed by tech guys, been treated rudely by tech guys, and watched two tech guys get all crazy infighting mad about my car, resulting in one guy scrawling some impossible to do instructions and throwing my book in my car and storming away, leaving the other guy saying, "I was trying to get you a fix my next weekend on that, figuring the NEXT tech guy would be fine with it". So, a wasted trip, no racing and I had to rip out and redo part of the cage....the part I modeled after a tech guys efforts in THE SAME CAR...which had a logbook. :shrug:

Cliff notes: Other than registration, Tech is THE place where newbies "Meet" SCCA. They don't know AZR from NER from NYR...they just think of it all as SCCA. ANd when an SCCA tech inspector is surly or less than welcoming, it makes the club surly and less than welcoming.
 
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