Here's a bombshell for you...
- Thread starter Mattberg
- Start date
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bump...
I'd like all you officials who said this thing wasn't anything real or official to deny it once again just for the record. Then I'm just going to check how many of your names are on the official e-mail that went out from the division confirming the details of said proposal titled "RACE REALIGNMENT PROPOSAL" authored by Fred Clark whoever that is, which I just happened to receive today. By the way it has all the addressees names on it. And Barry H., I think you already know your name is one of the first on the list.
Someone's been telling fibs Barry. 
The proposal is real Florida and North Carolina folks. And it's way worse than I thought.
I'd like all you officials who said this thing wasn't anything real or official to deny it once again just for the record. Then I'm just going to check how many of your names are on the official e-mail that went out from the division confirming the details of said proposal titled "RACE REALIGNMENT PROPOSAL" authored by Fred Clark whoever that is, which I just happened to receive today. By the way it has all the addressees names on it. And Barry H., I think you already know your name is one of the first on the list.
Someone's been telling fibs Barry. The proposal is real Florida and North Carolina folks. And it's way worse than I thought.
...not sure how to post it in original form and I don't want to publish it any other way. I can forward the e-mail to you if you'd like.
One note I will pass on is that it calls for no races from "runoffs" to Jan. Bye Bye Turkey Trot. We only had what? 400+ entries last week? It's starting to sound more like the other regions just don't want us to enjoy success to make their failures seem less significant. Come race in Florida folks.
Plenty of competition and the best workers in the world.
GO FLORIDA...and NORTH CAROLINA!
One note I will pass on is that it calls for no races from "runoffs" to Jan. Bye Bye Turkey Trot. We only had what? 400+ entries last week? It's starting to sound more like the other regions just don't want us to enjoy success to make their failures seem less significant. Come race in Florida folks.
Plenty of competition and the best workers in the world.GO FLORIDA...and NORTH CAROLINA!
Chris Wire
New member
Please forward said email to:
cwire*at*therecoveryroom*dot*com
and
twire*at*mindspring*dot*com
...if you would be so kind. As I mentioned, my position has already been communicated to my RE, but maybe another email or phone call is in order.
Any proposal that eliminates the Turkey Trot needs to get blasted.
"To the moon, Alice; to the moon!
"From each according to their means, to each according to their needs."
Now where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, history has already proven many times over the failures of socialism in many forms. There is absolutely no need for the division to limit the time frame under which a region can conduct races. We live in a capitalist society; let the marketplace determine which races succeed and which ones fail.
I don't deny that there will be issues that need to be addressed in the future for the long-term health of the Club Racing program in SEDiv. But whatever solutions come to pass, on it's face, this one doesn't appear to be the answer. I would love to hear what comes out of the meeting, from as many sources as possible. It will be interesting to compare perspectives.
I would suggest to the leadership of any region that would support such a proposal: Give the leaders of CFR and FR a call and see if they will share just what it is that they do so well that leads to such highly successful events. I'm sure that they would share some of the knowledge they have acquired over the many years of great events, as to what works, what doesn't, and how to begin a new or improve an existing racing program. Let me give you my perspective on what CFR has that makes is such a successful region:
1) Great leadership (people)
2) Great race staff (people)
3) Great workers (people)
4) Great members (people)
5) Sebring
6) Daytona
Now any region without 2 terrific racetracks may start out at a disadvantage, but a region with as many wonderful, dedicated people as CFR has can easily make it work if they approach it properly. The key is to find out what works and do it. Tying the hands of other regions to make your job easier is simply wrong.
I believe I have shown a sympathy to other regions' plight in getting a race program started, but I absolutely will not entertain a proposal that limits CFR's ability to conduct races when 80% of the rest of the country has already parked their cars for the winter.
A dressed-up pig is still a pig.
cwire*at*therecoveryroom*dot*com
and
twire*at*mindspring*dot*com
...if you would be so kind. As I mentioned, my position has already been communicated to my RE, but maybe another email or phone call is in order.
Any proposal that eliminates the Turkey Trot needs to get blasted.
"To the moon, Alice; to the moon!
"From each according to their means, to each according to their needs."
Now where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, history has already proven many times over the failures of socialism in many forms. There is absolutely no need for the division to limit the time frame under which a region can conduct races. We live in a capitalist society; let the marketplace determine which races succeed and which ones fail.
I don't deny that there will be issues that need to be addressed in the future for the long-term health of the Club Racing program in SEDiv. But whatever solutions come to pass, on it's face, this one doesn't appear to be the answer. I would love to hear what comes out of the meeting, from as many sources as possible. It will be interesting to compare perspectives.
I would suggest to the leadership of any region that would support such a proposal: Give the leaders of CFR and FR a call and see if they will share just what it is that they do so well that leads to such highly successful events. I'm sure that they would share some of the knowledge they have acquired over the many years of great events, as to what works, what doesn't, and how to begin a new or improve an existing racing program. Let me give you my perspective on what CFR has that makes is such a successful region:
1) Great leadership (people)
2) Great race staff (people)
3) Great workers (people)
4) Great members (people)
5) Sebring
6) Daytona
Now any region without 2 terrific racetracks may start out at a disadvantage, but a region with as many wonderful, dedicated people as CFR has can easily make it work if they approach it properly. The key is to find out what works and do it. Tying the hands of other regions to make your job easier is simply wrong.
I believe I have shown a sympathy to other regions' plight in getting a race program started, but I absolutely will not entertain a proposal that limits CFR's ability to conduct races when 80% of the rest of the country has already parked their cars for the winter.
A dressed-up pig is still a pig.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Originally posted by Mattberg@Dec 8 2005, 02:34 PM
...not sure how to post it in original form and I don't want to publish it any other way. I can forward the e-mail to you if you'd like.
One note I will pass on is that it calls for no races from "runoffs" to Jan. Bye Bye Turkey Trot. We only had what? 400+ entries last week? It's starting to sound more like the other regions just don't want us to enjoy success to make their failures seem less significant. Come race in Florida folks.
GO FLORIDA...and NORTH CAROLINA!
[snapback]67628[/snapback]
Matt,
I have been, and probably will continue to be - given your methods of delivery, one of your biggest critics. Please forward me the information. If I read it like you read it, I will be the first to apologize on this forum.
andybettencourt AT hotmail.com
AB
Ron Earp
Administrator
As a newbie and interested party please send me one as well. I'll make it easy so you can simply click on my email: [email protected] , or
Code:
"mailto:[email protected]"Ron
Dang, code didn't work. Anyhow, there is the address.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Sigh...........
I am SURE I will regret this...and I am SURE Bob can defend himself just fine...but, nevertheless,
Matt....what do you hear? HOW does Bob "keep on cheating"? WHAT ways does he use to keep it under the radar?
If you are going to slam, back it up. Facts..real documentable FACTS. You need to put up or shut up. Name the protest and the outcome. Copy the results and post them.
And as you used the term "keep on", then you'll need to list the first offense, and then the follow ups that you are refering to.
No "I got a phone call from a high placed but un-nameable source" BS, just DOCUMENTED (available to anyone) FACTS. If that's not possible, then we will all take it that you are blowing more smoke.
Jake,
Why is a name needed to represent something as FACT? What you don't seem to grasp here is that there can be serious recourse for some of these officials. If they see something bad going on but are in the minority there's little they can do other than alienate themselves. There have been some pretty nasty territory battles down here among officials and doing the right thing openly and publicly is sometimes impossible without ending up under the wheels of the train. Look at the response here from officials involved to Toni Creighton's confirmation and comments (no one likes to be caught in a lie
). So, often they come to me when they see an issue that needs to be addressed. That said, I don't just go blurt it out either. I spend time checking facts, calling people, confirming details, getting documentation and evaluating the issue as to its validity, importance and impact. If I championed every cause I get a call on I'd have no time for racing! I got tons of calls from people wanting me to start an outrage campaign about the new 1275 rule but I really couldn't confirm any facts, reports of favoritism or see any one-sided impact or injured party. Conversely, this was a serious issue that was confirmed by numerous people, both named and unamed, and backed up with written documentation. I wrote a couple of letters, called five regional executives and officials, two members of the BoD, numerous drivers from the different regions, reviewed race schedules, calculated the proposal's impact and analyzed the entire situation with the input of no less than ten others supplied with all of the data. All of this before the first post went up. Since then I've secured the written documentation, recorded the region of record and official position of each and every person on the copy list of said proposal and sent out another ten letters and endless e-mails. Jake, I don't champion any cause without facts and I put in the effort before during and after. As in other causes I've backed, this one is turning out to be EVERYTHING I said it was down to the last detail with undeniable accuracy. If that's blowing smoke to you, so be it, but I think the drivers in Florida and North Carolina will see it much differently. And, if you really need the name of the person who originally leaked the info, I'll send you the e-mailed proposal and you can guess. Sorry, but that's as close as I can get you. I will tell you that it's definately one of the people on the copy list!
Last, I now have the written documentation which numerous officials denied ever existed (even though their names are on it) and around forty other people have asked for and received copies from me, none of whom have challenged the details I originally presented. Actually, even the non-believers have turned 180 degrees after seeing the "smoking gun". So now, let's take a real close look at who is credible here and who is not. Let's see...A driver worried about drivers and regions losing races in a political and financial territory war among self admitted financially motivated officials OR those same officials who would conceal these issues, lie about them and then have us believe it wasn't happening telling us: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"?
What I don't understand Jake is how you, as a driver, could defend the actions surrounding this issue. I hope the reason you're speaking out is that you just don't like me or my methods.
GO FLORIDA and NORTH CAROLINA!
Here ya' go Matt.
I've tried to send the proposal as an attachment. We'll see if it works. I received it third or forth hand 2 days ago. It matches the notes I took. The other distribution that is going around is a copy of the draft minutes of the meeting. They confirm there will be a Friday night meeting. RE of CCR is to arrange the place.
Of course we all know that this will remove me from any and every distribution list forevermore.
Toni
I've tried to send the proposal as an attachment. We'll see if it works. I received it third or forth hand 2 days ago. It matches the notes I took. The other distribution that is going around is a copy of the draft minutes of the meeting. They confirm there will be a Friday night meeting. RE of CCR is to arrange the place.
Of course we all know that this will remove me from any and every distribution list forevermore.
Toni
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Well I am not turning 180 degrees on the issue. All I saw from you Matt was a PROPOSAL, nothing more. If you saw the types of self-serving 'proposals' and accusations I have over the years, just for the 3 Advisory Committies I have worked on, YOU may think there was some sort or underground effort to overthrow the SCCA.
If this was a court of law, you would have proven nothing. You have a document that was created based on a perceived NEED, and put before others. You have two factions of people saying totally opposite things - cancelling out each others credibility on the "facts" - leaving an impartial jury nothing to do but throw their hands up and not believe anyone. Frankly, the majority you think should RULE is against you in how many people have opposing views of what happened in some meeting.
Just because the idea may be a bad one, or favors a group other than your own, doesn't mean there was this huge conspiracy to ram-rod it through. If the people in charge of your Region were informed of the proposal, and they had their votes counted (which hasn't even happened yet because it was tabled), then there is no conspiracy.
Bottom line from a bystander? Quit it with the drama. Put out the facts and ask people to voice their opinion to the appropriate people in order to get something passed or squashed. We still do not have enough credible info on the intent or the facts of this to make a good judgement.
I still say this is a SE issue only, and should/could be handled in a much more professional way. Ask first, shoot later. If they deserve to be shot, pull the trigger - but don't start an e-mail with your guns blazing...it makes the people who volunteer for this stuff (like me) think of you in a less than positive light.
AB
If this was a court of law, you would have proven nothing. You have a document that was created based on a perceived NEED, and put before others. You have two factions of people saying totally opposite things - cancelling out each others credibility on the "facts" - leaving an impartial jury nothing to do but throw their hands up and not believe anyone. Frankly, the majority you think should RULE is against you in how many people have opposing views of what happened in some meeting.
Just because the idea may be a bad one, or favors a group other than your own, doesn't mean there was this huge conspiracy to ram-rod it through. If the people in charge of your Region were informed of the proposal, and they had their votes counted (which hasn't even happened yet because it was tabled), then there is no conspiracy.
Bottom line from a bystander? Quit it with the drama. Put out the facts and ask people to voice their opinion to the appropriate people in order to get something passed or squashed. We still do not have enough credible info on the intent or the facts of this to make a good judgement.
I still say this is a SE issue only, and should/could be handled in a much more professional way. Ask first, shoot later. If they deserve to be shot, pull the trigger - but don't start an e-mail with your guns blazing...it makes the people who volunteer for this stuff (like me) think of you in a less than positive light.
AB
Andy... the fact that all those who originally denied this was discussed are on the copy list for this e-mail is troublesome, don't ya' think? Even more troubling is the fact that three BoD members are on the list as well. This isn't some random idea that was brought up at a cocktail party. This is a serious proposal prepared as the result of discussions from the mid-year meeting and distributed to only a select few.
I spoke with Mike Van S. at Sebring last week and he ws shocked. No one knows anything about it. It's not been reported in any notes or web sites controlled by regions. Nowhere. This was done on the QT. Now it's in the open and the denials are rolling in to try and discredit the messenger and deflect the issue. Typical tactic. Keep it quiet until the vote and there's little chance of dissenting opinion. It's a bullshit tactic I've seen over and over. Right now they way I see it, the vote on this will be in favor which really sucks. I just want those small regions who will be the swing votes that they are getting snookered. They're not getting any races.
I spoke with Mike Van S. at Sebring last week and he ws shocked. No one knows anything about it. It's not been reported in any notes or web sites controlled by regions. Nowhere. This was done on the QT. Now it's in the open and the denials are rolling in to try and discredit the messenger and deflect the issue. Typical tactic. Keep it quiet until the vote and there's little chance of dissenting opinion. It's a bullshit tactic I've seen over and over. Right now they way I see it, the vote on this will be in favor which really sucks. I just want those small regions who will be the swing votes that they are getting snookered. They're not getting any races.
tom_sprecher
Super Moderator
God, I thought this post was dead, but I was wrong. It has been pulled back from the sewage from whence it came.
That's quite a document you guys got there. Pretty fancy letterhead but I'm having a hard time reading the signature.
As far as "...not sure how to post it in original form and I don't want to publish it any other way. I can forward the e-mail to you if you'd like..." it isn't rocket science unless this e-mail is BS.
Maybe you could cut and past the entire e-mail you keep touting and let us all in on the conspiracy.
That way I could (and would) take action instead of reading your ramblings. Don’t forget the header so I know who to call or visit.
Until you present factual information, quit wasting space here. You know, put up or shut up.
That's quite a document you guys got there. Pretty fancy letterhead but I'm having a hard time reading the signature.
As far as "...not sure how to post it in original form and I don't want to publish it any other way. I can forward the e-mail to you if you'd like..." it isn't rocket science unless this e-mail is BS.
Maybe you could cut and past the entire e-mail you keep touting and let us all in on the conspiracy.
That way I could (and would) take action instead of reading your ramblings. Don’t forget the header so I know who to call or visit.Until you present factual information, quit wasting space here. You know, put up or shut up.
Originally posted by tom_sprecher@Dec 9 2005, 02:59 PM
God, I thought this post was dead, but I was wrong. It has been pulled back from the sewage from whence it came.
That's quite a document you guys got there. Pretty fancy letterhead but I'm having a hard time reading the signature.
As far as "...not sure how to post it in original form and I don't want to publish it any other way. I can forward the e-mail to you if you'd like..." it isn't rocket science unless this e-mail is BS.
Maybe you could cut and past the entire e-mail you keep touting and let us all in on the conspiracy.
Until you present factual information, quit wasting space here. You know, put up or shut up.
[snapback]67718[/snapback]
Tom, I'm not sure how to do some of this stuff because the document was an attachment but here's the e-mail:
>>>>From: "Kaye" <[email protected]>
>>>>To: "Wayne Henry" <[email protected]>,"Barry Hair - ALA - 001"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Bob MacIsaac - ATL - 003"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Brian
>>>>Johns - Tenn - 040" <[email protected]>,"Danny Boyd - Dixie - 095"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Gerald Street - Chatt" <[email protected]>,"Glen
>
>>>>Thompson - BRR - 103" <[email protected]>,"Greg Smith - ODR -
> 063"
>>>><[email protected]>,"John Anderson - FLR - 011"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Julie Odom - MGR - 091"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Mark Senior - NC - 055"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Mark Tothermel - TVR - 093"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Martin Bartlett - CCR - 061"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Rick Balderson - CFR - 083"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Robert Mayes - SCR - 079"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Ted Migchelbrink - BUCC - 034"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Walt Wurzbach - GCR - 012"
>>>><[email protected]>
>>>>CC: "'Bill Weston'" <[email protected]>,"KP"
>>>><[email protected]>,"George Delong" <[email protected]>
>>>>Subject: Idea from Fred Clark
>>>>Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:01:12 -0500
>>>>
>>>>Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>>Attached is the proposal that Fred Clark came up with and briefly
>>>>discussed at the mid-year meeting.
>>>>
>>>>Kaye
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: TED MIGCHELBRINK [mailto:[email protected]]
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:10 PM
>>>>To: Bill Weston; Kaye Fairer
>>>>Subject: mid year
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Area directors, I am attaching an idea that Fred Clark came up with
> to
>>>>help with the equitable distribution of races for our division. See
> you
>>>>in a few weeks.
This piece of paper --- Fred Clarks proposal--- is just that, A FREAKIN PROPOSAL! I was sent a copy of it Sun. or Mon. by Kaye Fairer Area 12 Director. THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I SAW THE ACTUAL DOCUMENT. A folded up piece of paper was being passed around the room. BUT NO ACTION WAS TAKEN ON IT. This document was presented to our Race Board on Tues. night. Needless to say it "ain't gonna fly" in the FL. Region. THe Race Director Mike Finn, who was with me at the meeting in ATL. said "what kind of crap is this". Not posting something on the web site, or sending out tons of e-mail on someones proposal hardly constitutes an attempt to hide something from our members and drivers. We didn't post some of the more recent proposals issued by the Vatican either. The proposal addressed not racing over the end of the year holidays, making a giant leap of logic this came out as getting rid of the "Turkey Trot" in Nov to some. RACING WILL NOT CHANGE TO A FOUR (4) EVENT SCHEDULE IN THE FL> REGION. John Zucarrelli will become the new RE effective 1/1//06 as I did not seek re-election and he was unopposed. He shares similar feelings on the matter of the "PROPOSAL". I have received no indication of the details of the meeting that is supposedly taking place Fri. night at Jekyll. If I do, I will of course pass these on to John Z. So there you now know: What I knew, WhenI knew it, and Who told me. All cards on the table face -up, and nothing up the sleeves of my T-Shirt. I even changed the color on the Jet-Ranger from black to plaid. Jettison the canopy, and pull up on the "D" handle .....I'm outta here......
Capt. John
Reg.Exec
Fl. Region-SCCA
Capt. John
Reg.Exec
Fl. Region-SCCA
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