Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
I was quoting the total number of starts. I had 12. Isn't that what you guys count in participation numbers? ITA in the NARRC had a 13 starter per event this year.
Strategic Planning and "The Problem with IT"
- Thread starter lateapex911
- Start date
I was quoting the total number of starts. I had 12. Isn't that what you guys count in participation numbers? ITA in the NARRC had a 13 starter per event this year.
Thanks Andy. Yes, for many purposes the Club counts entrants as you use the term. However, that number can be deceiving about how deep the pool of talent is in a class. For instance, GP had 162 total National entries this year, but those were accounted for by only 37 drivers nation-wide. Add in Regional-only drivers and we are at maybe 50. ITA has ten times that many drivers, but we might not know that if we only had access to the total number of entries. That's why I am trying to actually count the drivers.
And yes, there are larger issues at play than just some rule sets, but that's a good place to start. To me it is axiomatic that a healthy Runoffs emerges from a robust National racing program. In turn a healthy National program has to have a healthy Regional program or it cannot last. And finally, adding in the currently Regional-only classes is the long term fix that I believe the Club needs to assure a healthy Regional to National to Runoffs paradigm.
Stan
Exactly, Jake. While many National racers argue passionately that the Club should stop adding new National classes, it is only by adding classes that the National program remains viable at all. This graphic illustrates where we'd be had the BoD not added new National classes over the years. BTW, the lines point to the END of the first year of National eligibility for the class in question. As you can see, most of the time adding in a new class adds to the total without a corresponding drop in other classes. In other words, adding new National classes brings in new drivers, not just steals drivers from existing National classes.
It's not just IT guys, Jake. The overwhelming input I see from National racers is that they'd like to see the Runoffs move to someplace further east towards the center of gravity of the membership. I like to use this graphic to illustrate the point. This map shows population density by county. The darker the color the denser the population. Topeka may be near the geographic center, but clearly just lengthens nearly everyone's tow.
And yes, there are larger issues at play than just some rule sets, but that's a good place to start. To me it is axiomatic that a healthy Runoffs emerges from a robust National racing program. In turn a healthy National program has to have a healthy Regional program or it cannot last. And finally, adding in the currently Regional-only classes is the long term fix that I believe the Club needs to assure a healthy Regional to National to Runoffs paradigm.
Stan
Zneed4speed
New member
Wow great graphics Stan!
A West coast guy that hears the East coasters too.
A West coast guy that hears the East coasters too.
JoshS
New member
Wow, great stuff, Stan! That first chart is pretty telling.
BTW, I just wanted to say that a couple of months ago, we were able to count at least 25 ITR drivers so far this year, halfway into the class' first season. Seems to be good compared to the national drivers in the other new 2007 classes you counted, but I'm not sure if it's reasonable to compare regional drivers to national. Any feeling for that?
BTW, I just wanted to say that a couple of months ago, we were able to count at least 25 ITR drivers so far this year, halfway into the class' first season. Seems to be good compared to the national drivers in the other new 2007 classes you counted, but I'm not sure if it's reasonable to compare regional drivers to national. Any feeling for that?
Well, I'm pleased you guys appreciated the graphics. As they say, a picture's worth a thousand words.
WRT moving the Runoffs further east, I don't know that I "get it" so much as I understand and agree with the larger issues. After all, HPT is a day's drive closer for me each direction. That said, it makes sense to me that the Club should place the event so as to attract as many racers as possible, and HPT just isn't that place IMO.
Josh, IIRC I've counted up at least 30 ITR drivers so far, and that's with the season still underway. ITR may never rival ITA for total numbers, but I'm guessing it'll be a solid class.
Stan
WRT moving the Runoffs further east, I don't know that I "get it" so much as I understand and agree with the larger issues. After all, HPT is a day's drive closer for me each direction. That said, it makes sense to me that the Club should place the event so as to attract as many racers as possible, and HPT just isn't that place IMO.
Josh, IIRC I've counted up at least 30 ITR drivers so far, and that's with the season still underway. ITR may never rival ITA for total numbers, but I'm guessing it'll be a solid class.
Stan
RX3
New member
Stan
Why don't we just drop National racing all together? National races for the most part do not make money and come with lots of baggage that makes them harder to put on. And we could let the classes with the most cars in them go to a championship race. If IT cars are is not eligible so be it. But get ride of the national racing program. The tail should not wag the dog.
Why don't we just drop National racing all together? National races for the most part do not make money and come with lots of baggage that makes them harder to put on. And we could let the classes with the most cars in them go to a championship race. If IT cars are is not eligible so be it. But get ride of the national racing program. The tail should not wag the dog.
gran racing
Super Moderator
One issue with that is how would regions handle race weekends? In some areas, this would cause scheduling issues.
Whether Nationals make money for the hosting Region is highly variable. In some parts of the country they do not, while in other parts of the country Regions vie for National races to make any money at all, as on average Nationals attract about 25 more entries than do Regionals (~150 versus ~125). That said, Regional races are the bread-n-butter for most Regions, as there are more than three times as many Regional races held each year than there are National races. In the end, the National racing program has been the focus of the Club for 60 years, and I think you will find stiff resistance to doing away with it.
To get back to Jake's original question, "...what ARE the problems facing IT?", I agree with Andy's assessment that there really aren't any immediate major problems facing the category. ITC is struggling due to a couple of factors, but not because there is any real flaw to the class. THE growth in new IT cars is with guys picking up a 4-6 year old used street car to built to run in ITA or ITS, while there is a perceived lack of attractive cars like that for ITC. Every class in the Club that does not have a ready and affordable supply of new cars it is potentially facing the same challenge.
IMO the one thing that I think puts a cap on IT's ultimate potential is not being able to go to the Runoffs. Judging from the ARRC, there is clearly interest among a strong contingent in each IT class in a National Championship, yet the category is arbitrarily kept on the second string, at least so far as the prestige of its championship is concerned. Contrary to some fears, permitting SM to go National has not damaged the class. Folks are still building and racing them in great numbers. The rules have tightened up from when it was Regional-only. And Regions have to figure out ways to fit them all in ... a delightful problem to have! If all GCR-recognized classes were eligible to contest the Runoffs, there would still be a dozen that don't make the cut, and just as today, those could go to the ARRC.
Stan
To get back to Jake's original question, "...what ARE the problems facing IT?", I agree with Andy's assessment that there really aren't any immediate major problems facing the category. ITC is struggling due to a couple of factors, but not because there is any real flaw to the class. THE growth in new IT cars is with guys picking up a 4-6 year old used street car to built to run in ITA or ITS, while there is a perceived lack of attractive cars like that for ITC. Every class in the Club that does not have a ready and affordable supply of new cars it is potentially facing the same challenge.
IMO the one thing that I think puts a cap on IT's ultimate potential is not being able to go to the Runoffs. Judging from the ARRC, there is clearly interest among a strong contingent in each IT class in a National Championship, yet the category is arbitrarily kept on the second string, at least so far as the prestige of its championship is concerned. Contrary to some fears, permitting SM to go National has not damaged the class. Folks are still building and racing them in great numbers. The rules have tightened up from when it was Regional-only. And Regions have to figure out ways to fit them all in ... a delightful problem to have! If all GCR-recognized classes were eligible to contest the Runoffs, there would still be a dozen that don't make the cut, and just as today, those could go to the ARRC.
Stan
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
...or the Mid-Ohio IT-Fest...or something we may be cooking up at WGI....
RX3
New member
I have over 250 cars for my regional race this weekend. I will most likely have 300 in October and 400 car in November. I never see that many car at a national. And i have been doing this for some time now. A 150 field is no a good turn out, but will most likely get the bill payed if you charge enought.
as someone who has very closely watched SM for the last 4-5yrs, i think you're way off. ever since SM went national, we've seen participation fall off by about 30% in this division. overall participation numbers may be steady or slightly falling, but look at the #'s for the first to the second year of nationals, i don't think it's good. i tried to find it on SCCA.com, but it appears the link has been taken down. i do know the runoffs entries are about 30% lower this year.
even the rules adjustments that in and of themselves were positive moves (cam clarification, clutch rule) have ended up hurting the class because they've all been against the bread and butter 1.6 car and put it at an overall disadvantage. the cost to be competitive has tripled for the car itself, and around 7x for consumables like tires.
the regional classes like SSM have maintained the 'spirit' of the initial SM class better than the national ruleset, and i think is very much like the current IT crowd, thus their strong numbers. still very competitive, but national SM is whole nother prep level above, which i don't think even most of the big names on the national IT scene quite understand.
just like going national i don't think was healthy for SM, i don't think it would be for IT either. but, taking every class in the GCR and taking the top 25 to the big show would be healthy for the club overall, and that i would support.
and if it wasn't for national racing in the kansas, nebraska, iowa, missouri, oklahoma, tennessee, and arkansas quadrant, we wouldn't have racing at all.
we would LOVE it if we could get 150 entrants for every national event, and even 100 for every regional. as it is now, we probably stand at an average of 130 per national, and 75 per regional event (which lose lots of money, subsidized by the nationals).
lateapex911
Super Moderator
I have to be honest that I don't know the myriad of rules and requirements for going to the Runoffs, but I find it hilarious when I go to a National, say at Lime Rock, where we have a pretty good number of competitors, and I watch guys pull off after the middle of the race. In perfectly good cars
.
"Why did he do that" I ask my seasoned National friend watching with me.
"Because he only needs XX points/starts/whatever to qualify for the Runoffs."
Huh?
Then I look at Runoffs results, and I see lots of classes with HUGE time spreads, and they aren't filled...or in some cases, even close to being filled.
To me, that seems like a broken system.
For the club as a whole to flourish, it needs to allow those that want to race, to race. Having guys show up and run a half race the bare minimum of times just so they can go to the Runoffs....and finish well back (for the example I noted earlier) seems silly.
Anothe issue I used to think was important, but is slipping more and more into oblivion every year, is the fact that our little club racing world gets put on TV once a year.
I watch the races, and sometimes I wonder what the average interested, but not indoctinated into SCCA viewer thinks. "Yawn"? "Is this vintage racing"? Some races play well on TV, but there sure do seem to be lots of less than full fields. Thats a big waste of precious media exposure.
Even me, an SCCA guy, if faced with the prospect of setting my TIVO for a British Touring Car race or an SCCA Runoffs race, would probably choose the BTCC on the odds that the racing would be better.
And thats not what our National Championship should be.
To me, it's clear making IT National would help the club. Whether it would help IT is, maybe, a slightly different story.
.
"Why did he do that" I ask my seasoned National friend watching with me.
"Because he only needs XX points/starts/whatever to qualify for the Runoffs."
Huh?
Then I look at Runoffs results, and I see lots of classes with HUGE time spreads, and they aren't filled...or in some cases, even close to being filled.
To me, that seems like a broken system.
For the club as a whole to flourish, it needs to allow those that want to race, to race. Having guys show up and run a half race the bare minimum of times just so they can go to the Runoffs....and finish well back (for the example I noted earlier) seems silly.
Anothe issue I used to think was important, but is slipping more and more into oblivion every year, is the fact that our little club racing world gets put on TV once a year.
I watch the races, and sometimes I wonder what the average interested, but not indoctinated into SCCA viewer thinks. "Yawn"? "Is this vintage racing"? Some races play well on TV, but there sure do seem to be lots of less than full fields. Thats a big waste of precious media exposure.
Even me, an SCCA guy, if faced with the prospect of setting my TIVO for a British Touring Car race or an SCCA Runoffs race, would probably choose the BTCC on the odds that the racing would be better.
And thats not what our National Championship should be.
To me, it's clear making IT National would help the club. Whether it would help IT is, maybe, a slightly different story.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Trav - what are the numbers telling you?
1. If 100 drivers entered SM before it went National and now those 100 drivers are just split between national and regional, then there was no net loss.
2. If entrants are down a certain % across the board this year due to economic factors, then you have to consider that decline as well.
3. The first year SM went national (2006), a decent amount of drivers ran both a national and a regional program. This year they made a decision on where they want to spend their money.
I contend SM participation is not down at all, it's just measured in two different buckets now. That coupled with the overall decrease in participation due to gas prices etc, makes it look like numbers are lower. They may be, but not significantly.
1. If 100 drivers entered SM before it went National and now those 100 drivers are just split between national and regional, then there was no net loss.
2. If entrants are down a certain % across the board this year due to economic factors, then you have to consider that decline as well.
3. The first year SM went national (2006), a decent amount of drivers ran both a national and a regional program. This year they made a decision on where they want to spend their money.
I contend SM participation is not down at all, it's just measured in two different buckets now. That coupled with the overall decrease in participation due to gas prices etc, makes it look like numbers are lower. They may be, but not significantly.
andy the numbers tell me things are significantly worse. but i acknowledge and recognize our huge land mass in the center of the country can be different than *everywhere else.* i also tried to address my post to the national portion of SM, not the class as a whole. even if the numbers are the same as before, further dividing up the class is not good imo.
20 entrants in a single class > 10 entrants each in two classes. we all know this.
the year before it went national, we'd usually get 25-35 and our own run group. a year after nationals, entries are in the 10-18 range for a national race not at topeka, and 5-8 SMs for a regional race.
Dave Burchfield
New member
I think Jake's comment goes quite to the point. Yes, IT going National would be good for "The Club"
However, I feel more strongly than Jake that, considering the current state of affairs in the club, I fear what may happen to IT if it does go national.
To speak to the matter of what is wrong with IT, I am at a bit of a loss to think of anything of any significance. After competing in the class for over 15 years, I enjoy the stable rules package, change that is slow to happen, and a logical evolution of the classes.
My greatest fear is if IT does go national, the powers that be may begin making changes to the IT rules to allow for a "more logical progression" to the current National classes. We may be just best left alone.
However, I feel more strongly than Jake that, considering the current state of affairs in the club, I fear what may happen to IT if it does go national.
To speak to the matter of what is wrong with IT, I am at a bit of a loss to think of anything of any significance. After competing in the class for over 15 years, I enjoy the stable rules package, change that is slow to happen, and a logical evolution of the classes.
My greatest fear is if IT does go national, the powers that be may begin making changes to the IT rules to allow for a "more logical progression" to the current National classes. We may be just best left alone.
JoshS
New member
In my corner of the world (NorPac/SoPac, SS and T classes), I've never seen anyone do that. Maybe that's only in the classes with more fragile cars?
I do know SS/T folks who do the minimum number of races (I've never been one of them) ... but I've never seen anyone quit a race in the middle because he didn't need to finish it.